hardly - and, nor

Question

hi,1. I hardly go to A and B.2. I hardly go to A nor B.which one is right?-----1. He told me that there was a book on the desk. 2. He told me that there is a book on the desk.In the case the book is still on the desk, which one is right? I read verb in the subordinate goes along with the verb in the main clause, but am confused in some cases.

Avangi · Accepted Answer

Lawrence H. Songhi,

1. I hardly go to A and B.

2. I hardly go to A nor B.

which one is right? ----- I don't like either one. How about, I neither go to A nor B. I hardly go to A or B. I never go to A or B. I always go to [either] A or B. (Maybe I'm wrong.)

1. He told me that there was a book on the desk.

2. He told me that there is a book on the desk.

In the case the book is still on the desk, which one is right? I think both are correct. It's not relevant that the book is still on the desk, since he told you in the past.

I read verb in the subordinate goes along with the verb in the main clause, but am confused in some cases.

Hi Lawrence,

I see what you mean. I can't seem to come up with any help at all. I'm having trouble with both sets.

In the first set, maybe it's because you can't go to two places at the same time. I wouldn't say, "I always go to A and B," but I suppose it's possible. I wouldn't say, "I never go to A nor B," but I suppose it's possible.

In the second set, you can't justify present tense in the subordinate clause because the book is still there, since you're simply reporting what he said in the past. I suppose the correct thing is to let the two verbs agree, but I think you could say, "He told me that two and two are four."

Best regards, - A.

Hoa Thai · Answer

Hi Avangi,

I attempted to reply many times but I was not sure of the logic that I could use to defend my thought. Seeing your answer, I begin to form an opinion – but still! Well, I am thinking out loud here.

Instinctively, I would not support the usage of nor in ’s statement. It seems to me, we use either neither .. nor or not … nor when the situation dictates a binary decision; we use nor for NO/DON’T and no nor for YES/DO. The word hardly does not cut it clear. To date, I have not seen ‘hardly, nor’ combination being used in any literatures.

‘I don’t read nor write’. Okay
‘I don’t go to the bank nor / or the market anymore’ Okay.
‘I hardly go to the bank nor the market anymore’. Hmmm!

In regard to and, I think it is a matter of context; if we can treat A and B together as a single unit, and would stand.

The verb go in 'I hardly go to A and B' - as you said – does not support the simultaneity of going to two places at the same time. However, I would not reject the sentence ‘I hardly see you and the kids anymore’, in which you and the kids are treated as a single unit. Similarly, I would accept ‘I hardly go to Mom and Dad for help anymore’.

Am I off base?

Yankee · Answer

Hoa Thai‘I don’t read nor write’. Okay
‘I don’t go to the bank nor / or the market anymore’ Okay.
‘I hardly go to the bank nor the market anymore’. Hmmm!

Hi Hoa Thai
Oddly enough, I'd have rejected 'nor' in all three sentences. To me, the "not, nor" combination is usually used this way:
‘I don’t read. Nor do I write’.
‘I don't go to the bank anymore. Nor (do I go to) the market.’

In the third sentence, you should stick with 'or':
‘I hardly go to the bank or the market anymore’.

Avangi · Answer

Hoa Thai
The verb go in 'I hardly go to A and B' - as you said – does not support the simultaneity of going to two places at the same time. However, I would not reject the sentence ‘I hardly see you and the kids anymore’, in which you and the kids are treated as a single unit. Similarly, I would accept ‘I hardly go to Mom and Dad for help anymore’.

What you say is good. We really need to know more about A and B. If Mom and Dad couldn't be approached as a unit, we'd say Mom or Dad. Likewise "you and the kids."

In southern CA we have three big grocery supermarket chains (at least!) - Vons, Ralphs, and Albertsons. I hardly go to Vons or Albertsons any more. Do you think and is acceptable here?

Regards, - A.

Hoa Thai · Answer

Avangi
Hoa ThaiThe verb go in 'I hardly go to A and B' - as you said – does not support the simultaneity of going to two places at the same time. However, I would not reject the sentence ‘I hardly see you and the kids anymore’, in which you and the kids are treated as a single unit. Similarly, I would accept ‘I hardly go to Mom and Dad for help anymore’.
What you say is good. We really need to know more about A and B. If Mom and Dad couldn't be approached as a unit, we'd say Mom or Dad. Likewise "you and the kids."

In southern CA we have three big grocery supermarket chains (at least!) - Vons, Ralphs, and Albertsons. I hardly go to Vons or Albertsons any more. Do you think and is acceptable here?

Regards, - A.

Great! The two of us are together on this. We cannot go to two difference places at the same time, so or is the only choice.

How about the other half, the don't ...nor? I gather you agree with Amy on that one, right? I am still thinking about it. I have seen the don't ... nor used in many good sources, but I guess it is no longer considered natural.

That said, if special emphasis is intended for the word after nor, as in 'He will not withdraw nor reduce his demands', I think it is acceptable. What do you think? Again, Amy must have her opinion, and I would like to read her words too.

Yoong Liat · Answer

Lawrence H. Songhi, 1. I hardly go to A and B. 2. I hardly go to A nor B. which one is right? ----- 1. He told me that there was a book on the desk. 2. He told me that there is a book on the desk. In the case the book is still on the desk, which one is right? I read verb in the subordinate goes along with the verb in the main clause, but am confused in some cases.

He told me that there is a book on the desk. (If this is said when the book is on the desk and remains there all the time, then 'is' is the better option. However, it is not wrong to use 'was' because the preceding verb is 'told'.)

Hoa Thai · Answer

Yankee
Hoa Thai‘I don’t read nor write’. Okay
‘I don’t go to the bank nor / or the market anymore’ Okay.
‘I hardly go to the bank nor the market anymore’. Hmmm!
Hi Hoa Thai
Oddly enough, I'd have rejected 'nor' in all three sentences. To me, the "not, nor" combination is usually used this way:
‘I don’t read. Nor do I write’.
‘I don't go to the bank anymore. Nor (do I go to) the market.’

In the third sentence, you should stick with 'or':
‘I hardly go to the bank or the market anymore’.

Hi Amy,

I am with you. I have mostly used constructions similar to yours. For example, “I am not, nor have I ever been, …”

However, I wonder if those sentences that I marked ‘Okay’ are ungrammatical or archaic. I found a few articles archived by The New York Times that support the ‘not, nor’ pair, as in “The ignorant white men, who cannot read nor write, who never owned a slave, …”

Interestingly enough, from one of the recent articles published by the UNESCO Institute for Statistics titled “Examining the notion of literacy in a rapidly changing world,” I saw this opening statement:

“At the outset of the 21st century, there are still an estimated 880 million adults who cannot read nor write in the world; two-thirds of whom are women.”

In addition to those, I was taught that the ‘not, nor’ pair could be used to specially emphasize the word after nor, as in “He will not withdraw nor reduce his demands.” I found this teaching from my late teacher is still being used. Here are a few examples:
"So, while we will not withdraw or reduce any of our military efforts in Irag ...."
http://www.districtadministration.com/pulse/commentpost.aspx?news=no&postid=16955
“…people should not withdraw nor make ‘tactical votes’ for that reason...”

Please comment.

Avangi · Answer

Hi Hoa Thai,

I'm undecided on the not-nor thing. I like and use "nor" but instinctively preceed it with "neither." Yet I can see that in your examples where you use "nor" to emphasize the second item, switching "not" to "neither" seems to trivialize the first item.

Sounds like you and your teacher had a good understanding.

Best wishes, - A.

Lawrence H. Song · Answer

Thank you all.
I think I am getting to understand about "nor" thing.

hardly - and, nor

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