Handbaskets and hand barrows and Hades

Question

Here is an entry for the Journal of AUE Failed Searches.

I was thinking that possibly
"to hell in a handbasket"
was originally
"to hell in a hand barrow"
but found no support for this in the Making of America archive or the American Memory archives.
In support:
() they both have the same rhythm;
() there was another popular expression involving handbasket () We have that Falstaff quote supporting "utter ruin".

Maybe in a few years they will add more material to the archives and we can see when the expression entered the language. In the existing examples it looks like it had been around for a while. Although the term hand barrow can still be seen in later samples, and indeed is in dictionaries today, perhaps it was being phased out regionally in favor of the alternatives and the change was made in one of those places. I had to look it up.
The following might be related
some people were carried to Hades in a hand barrow. From the Autobiography of Joseph Bates, 1792-1872. Chapters XI-XVI.

This was another burying-place. On looking over the railing placed around it to prevent the living from falling in, the sight was most revolting. Some bodies stood erect, others with their heads downward, and in every imaginable position, just as they happened to fall from the hand-barrow, with their ragged, unclean clothing on in which they died. These, of course, were the abject poor, whose friends were unable to pay rent for a burying-place underground or in one of the white-washed cells in the walls.
(1) www.earlysda.com/bates/joseph-bates11-16.html
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.

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[nq:1]Here is an entry for the Journal of AUE Failed Searches. I was thinking that possibly "to **** in a ... a hand barrow" but found no support for this in the Making of America archive or the American Memory archives.[/nq]
I've just been doing a search for the origins of 'fit as a fiddle', with no success.

Rob Bannister

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[nq:1]Here is an entry for the Journal of AUE Failed Searches. I was thinking that possibly "to **** in a ... the same rhythm; () there was another popular expression involving handbasket () We have that Falstaff quote supporting "utter ruin".[/nq]
I'm curious too. When I wrote the first, the obvious choice for any American, a British reader, Matti perhaps, corrected it to a phrase using a word I'd never heard of. Looking up hand-barrow just now in the OED leaves me thinking it is an old, obsolete, rather useless term. Is 'to **** in a hand-barrow' the only place where it remains in our language, a holdover from days gone by?

Charles Riggs

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"Richard Maurer" schreef in bericht
[nq:1]Here is an entry for the Journal of AUE Failed Searches. I was thinking that possibly "to **** in a ... the same rhythm; () there was another popular expression involving handbasket () We have that Falstaff quote supporting "utter ruin".[/nq]
Quinion in http://www.worldwidewords.org has the following on it:
It's a fairly common American expression, known for much of the twentieth century. But it's one about which almost no information exists, at least in the two dozen or so reference books I've consulted. William and Mary Morris, in their Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins, confess to the same difficulty. A handbasket is just a basket to be carried in the hand (my thanks to the Oxford English Dictionary for that gem of definition). The Dictionary of American Regional English records to go to heaven in a handbasket rather earlier than the alternative, which doesn't appear in print until the 1940s (Walt Quader tells me that Burton Stevenson included a citation in his Home Book of Proverbs, Maxims and Familiar Phrases from Bayard Kendrick's The Odor of Violets, published in 1941).

But DARE quotes a related expression from 1714: "A committee brought in something about Piscataqua. Govr said he would give his head in a Handbasket as soon as he would pass it", which suggests that it, or at least phrases like it, have been around in the spoken language for a long time. For example, there's an even older expression, to go to heaven in a wheelbarrow, recorded as early as 1629, which also meant "to go to ****". I can only assume that the alliteration of the hs has had a lot to do with the success of the various phrases, and that perhaps handbasket suggests something easily and speedily done.
Ted
Holland

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[nq:1]Here is an entry for the Journal of AUE Failed Searches. I was thinking that possibly "to **** in a ... like it had been around for a while. Although the term hand barrow can still be seen in later samples,[/nq]
Now, that I've lost track of. You have samples of people saying something like "going to **** in/on a handbarrow"? When, please? I don't find any now.
[nq:1]and indeed is in dictionaries today,[/nq]
You mean that the word "handbarrow" is in dictionaries, I think?
[nq:1]perhaps it was being phased out regionally in favor of the alternatives and the change was made in one of those places. I had to look it up. The following might be related some people were carried to Hades in a hand barrow.[/nq]
Well, you're reaching there, I'm afraid.
[nq:1]From the Autobiography of Joseph Bates, 1792-1872. Chapters XI-XVI. This was another burying-place. On looking over the railing placed around ... friends were unable to pay rent for a burying-place underground or in one of the white-washed cells in the walls.[/nq]
All that comes down to is, a traveller in 1822 Peru noted that a hand-barrow was used to shift the bodies around in the cemetery (from rented vaults to mass graves).

A flat rectangular tray or cart with carrying poles at each end, used in transporting loads.
I'm sure in 1822, somebody in Peru used a handsaw to make something-or-other, but that doesn't explain why we speak of handsaws in the same breath as hawks.
I'm glad you looked, but I tend to agree with what you say up top you haven't found any connection.

Best - Donna Richoux

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Here is an entry for the Journal of AUE Failed Searches.

I was thinking that possibly
"to **** in a handbasket"
was originally
"to **** in a hand barrow"
but found no support for this in the Making of America archive or the American Memory archives.
In support:
() they both have the same rhythm;
() there was another popular expression involving handbasket () We have that Falstaff quote supporting "utter ruin".

Maybe in a few years they will add more material to the archives and we can see when the expression entered the language. In the existing examples it looks like it had been around for a while. Although the term hand barrow can still be seen in later samples, and indeed is in dictionaries today, perhaps it was being phased out regionally in favor of the alternatives and the change was made in one of those places. I had to look it up.

Now, that I've lost track of. You have samples
of people saying something like "going to ****
in/on a handbarrow"? When, please? I don't find any now.
Sorry, I meant the bare term 'hand barrow' was used decades later than the 1865 sighting of "to **** in a handbasket". I thought 'hand barrow' might have already been archaic and that is why the saying changed implements. Still have the possibility of regional archaism.
Donna Richoux continued:
You mean that the word "handbarrow"
is in dictionaries, I think?
Yes, although I saw it mostly in the 'hand barrow' form in the archives (as I recall, without going back).
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. (dealing with a flaky ISP)

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Smokey Stover wrote at phrases.org.uk:
In Fairford church, Gloucestershire, the great West window (installed before 1517 AD) shows the Day of Judgment in stained glass, with the innocent going to heaven and the guilty going to ****. Among the latter is an old woman in a wheelbarrow, being pushed to her doom by a blue devil. So the idea of "going to **** in a handcart"
is a good 500 years old.
In 1842 the phrase
"to **** on a wheel-barrow"
appeared in print in The Ladies' repository :
On one side is a representation of ****, with the great devil drawn with red and white teeth, three eyes, and scaly legs and face. Some are going to **** headlong, some on the devils' backs, and some on their arms. There is Dives in ****, praying for a drop of water to cool his tongue, and Lazarus is placed in contrast, among the blessed, in Abraham's bosom; also, a woman going to **** on a wheel-barrow, for scolding at her husband; with many other devices, agreeable to the gross ideas of the designer. This window is of high estimation.
Author: E. R. H.
Title: Fairford and its Church
Publication Info: The Ladies' repository: a monthly periodical, devoted to literature, arts, and religion.
/ Volume 2, Issue 7, July 1842, pp.201-203
Collection: Making of America Journal Articles
The designs for the windows were apparently by Albert Durer.

Now, how did the author know that the crime was
scolding her husband? Was this the source of the
"number of minor sins"
sense of the expression?
If that was her crime, what was the visual image
of a wheel-barrow supposed to mean in 1493?
Was it relatively comfortable or representing utter ruin?

Anyways, there is a picture at
http://faculty.smu.edu/sshepher/fairfcom.htm
but I can't make out the wheel-barrow.
Maybe it *is* a push-cart.
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.

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[nq:1]Smokey Stover wrote at phrases.org.uk: In Fairford church, Gloucestershire, the great West window (installed before 1517 AD) shows the Day ... 7, July 1842, pp.201-203 Collection: Making of America Journal Articles The designs for the windows were apparently by Albert Durer.[/nq]
This is good stuff. Going to **** in a wheelbarrow in a 1500s stained-glass window. All this is consistent with the idea (Matti's?) that the expression with "handcart" is older than the one with "handbasket."

John Tame, a merchant of London, came into
possession of a captured vessel which was bound to Rome, and in which there was a large quantity of
curious painted glass. He determined to erect a
building to receive this glass, and selected for the spot Fairford, which had been his place of residence for some time, Having purchased the manor of Henry VII, he commenced the church in 1493, but dying soon afterwards it was completed by his son. The glass
was disposed in 28 windows with four more
compartments in each ; but in several of them the
figures are now mutilated or displaced. Some of the most striking passages in the Old and New Testament form the subjects of the paintings, which are
considered extremely beautiful specimens of the art ; they were designed by Albert Durer, to whom the
greatest improvement in the art of painting on glass are attributed.
[nq:1]Now, how did the author know that the crime was scolding her husband?[/nq]
I don't know, but there might have been some significant symbol of a scold that escapes us a certain kind of hat, or holding a certain object. Art was full of that sort of symbolism then. It might have been more visible in the past (or in the artist's original rendering, I would have said, except for the salvage operation, described above).
[nq:1]Was this the source of the "number of minor sins" sense of the expression? If that was her crime, what was the visual image of a wheel-barrow supposed to mean in 1493? Was it relatively comfortable or representing utter ruin?[/nq]
I think the main idea of going in a wheeled cart is that it is swift and easy for the carrier. A guaranteed trip not anything about passenger comfort or status. Though, the idea of ease is present in the current "going to **** in a handcart/handbasket," as well as surety and speed.
[nq:1]Anyways, there is a picture at http://faculty.smu.edu/sshepher/fairfcom.htm but I can't make out the wheel-barrow. Maybe it *is* a push-cart.[/nq]
I wouldn't have recognized it, but having been told to look for a wheelbarrow, I see it one brown patch is the wheel and the other the supporting underframe.
If you search Google Imagines for you can see they came in a variety of designs.
In fact, that led to some more devil/wheelbarrow art in Doomsday pictures in 15th century English churches, such as:

http://www.paintedchurch.org/bacton.htm
Around and below this, figures fall into **** and at the bottom, damaged now but detectable, is a devil (with a tail) pushing a wheelbarrow loaded with at least one and probably more figures. I think there is another prancing devil, possibly blowing a horn, above the wheelbarrow, but these small details are hard to see. This is, evidently, someone literally going to **** in a handcart, a detail found also at nearby Yaxley, and, newly on the site, at Chesterton in Cambridgeshire . Similar details, suggesting
reference to proverbs or sayings, crop up across the spectrum of later medieval art - a wheelbarrow,
carrying an unhappy-looking jester standing in a
wicker basket appears in a contemporary Burgundian manuscript . The man pushing it is not visibly
devilish, but like the Bacton detail, the
illustration may be a comment, more meaningful then than now, on the fate of those who pursue folly.

Best Donna Richoux

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From a site referenced by Donna Richoux:
www.paintedchurch.org/bacton.htm
I see a twofer
someone unhappily going (to ****?) in a handbasket in a wheel barrow.

Around and below this, figures fall into **** and at the bottom, damaged now but detectable, is a devil (with a tail) pushing a wheelbarrow loaded with at least one and probably more figures. I think there is another prancing devil, possibly blowing a horn, above the wheelbarrow, but these small details are hard to see. This is, evidently, someone literally going to **** in a handcart,
a detail found also at nearby Yaxley, and, newly on the site, at Chesterton in Cambridgeshire . Similar details, suggesting reference to proverbs or sayings, crop up across the spectrum of later medieval art - a wheelbarrow, carrying an unhappy-looking jester standing in a wicker basket appears in a contemporary Burgundian manuscript. The man pushing it is not visibly devilish, but like the Bacton detail, the illustration may be a comment, more meaningful then than now, on the fate of those who pursue folly.
I conjecture that rather than the phrase morphing from one form to another, that all three forms (handbasket, wheel-barrow, handcart) are equally valid, depending on which stained glass window or painting was most visible to influential speakers in the local population.
Perhaps the phrase got dropped in America (there were no windows to remind) and then perhaps an article, such as the 1842 one upthread, inspired some preachers to make a church art junket to England. Then they brought back the images in their minds and put the sayings in their sermons.
Now we just need someone who knows medieval symbolism to tell us what the phrase or idea originally meant,
and if it makes any difference if it is a basket or a wheelbarrow or a handcart.
Will be interesting to find out whether the saying has been kept alive for 500 years in some isolated village.
Shouldn't there be equivalent sayings in Italian, French, Dutch ... ? Or did wheelbarrows only appear in English depictions of ****?

Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.

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[nq:1]From a site referenced by Donna Richoux: www.paintedchurch.org/bacton.htm I see a twofer someone unhappily going (to ****?) in a ... there be equivalent sayings in Italian, French, Dutch ... ? Or did wheelbarrows only appear in English depictions of ****?[/nq]
Did a handbasket appear in any of these depictions? You mention above a soul in a wicker basket, but it seems that this was in turn being transported by wheelbarrow so it clearly doesn't count :-)

Matti

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[nq:1]Donna Richoux continued: You mean that the word "handbarrow" is in dictionaries, I think? Yes, although I saw it mostly in the 'hand barrow' form in the archives (as I recall, without going back).[/nq]
It's important to remember what a barrow is in essentials. Note that we often use the word for "wheelbarrow", the familiar thing with one wheel. The "wheel" element is significant, however, because there are also similar things with no wheels at all, but pairs of handles at each end for two people to carry them by, and these too are called "barrows". The ones I've seen were in libraries; and while I've seen them called that, I can't remember if that was in a library context or not. But I'd see no difficulty in calling these "hand-barrows".

I don't fancy a wrestle with the small print just now; but I wouldn't be at all surprised if an early equivalent of what we call a "stretcher" was called a "barrow". Our casevac stretchers are commonly folding things like camp beds, (which are also sometimes called "stretcher beds"); but I imagine they aren't the original form.

I'd guess that the well-known crustaceanist Molly Malone's wheelbarrow had two wheels: the old market barrows I've seen had two wheels and legs at the back to rest on. But I'm really sorry I can't cope with small print today some costers' barrows were four-wheeled and horse-drawn: there's sometimes a class for them at horse shows. This leaves open the possibility that "hand-barrow" may be as applicable to people-powered wheeled ones as to the two-man-carried kind.

(OT: ISTR Richard's Bicycle Book says the cycling hobbyist calls a tricycle a "barrow".)
Mike.

Handbaskets and hand barrows and Hades

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