Had spoken at the meeting today

Question

Hello....Below is from Conditionals, by Declerck.What does the underlined part mean?Does it mean "If your father is going to speak at the meeting today"?*************If the verb of the P-clause is nonstative, we cannot use the past tense to refer to the extended present, but we can use the past perfect. The conditional expressing the required temporal combination is then a regular pattern 3 conditional:If your father had spoken at the meeting today, he would have rehearsed his speech in front of me yesterday.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

pructusWhat does the underlined part mean?Does it mean "If your father is going to speak at the meeting today"?

No; it means that he did not speak. Conditional III refers to a past non-event, something that did not happen.

CalifJim · Answer

pructusWhat does the underlined part mean?Does it mean "If your father is going to speak at the meeting today"?

No, it doesn't mean that.

If your father had spoken at the meeting today implies that your father did not speak at the meeting (earlier) today.

I think the author is taking "today" as the signal of what he is calling "the extended present", though, not knowing the full context of his remarks within his book, I don't understand fully what point he is making. The if-clause is about the past even though it's the past part of the same day.

CJ

Pructus · Answer

I see... I see...
Thanks a lot, Mister Micawber!!

Pructus · Answer

Oh, thanks a lot, CJ!!
If the sentence had been given on its own, I surely would have known the meaning.
But the author presented it with the notion, extended present, so I had to think more about what the author is trying to convey.

Now, with the reponse of yours and Mister Micawber's, I can see why the author put in the sentence at the section of "extended present". The author seems to be saying that the father's not speaking is going on to the present situation. But the verb "speak" is not stative verb, we cannot use simple Past tense.

Just for people interested in this issue of English grammar....
Below are some examples in the book, section title, Extended present P-situation + past / pre-present Q-situation

a. If I knew the answer, I would already have told it to you yesterday.
(pattern 2 P-clause + pattern 3 Q-clause)

b. If you commuted to London every day, I wouldn't have thought of
marrying you. (id.) (The 'extended present' interpretation follows
from the habitual reading.)

c. She wouldn't have proposed to you if you didn't have such a good
job. (pattern 3 Q-clause + pattern 2 P-clause)

CalifJim · Answer

pructussome examples in the book

Interesting examples. You're getting into some advanced grammatical territory.

CJ

Pructus · Answer

Thanks CJ, but there still seem to be some more questions for me....

a. If I knew the answer, I would already have told it to you yesterday.

Does the underlined part mean that (A) I do not know today too?
Or, (B) it just means that I didn't know at that time in the past and does not mention about today?

I remember we have dealt with this issue before, but it stil is somewhat vague...

If I still don't know the answer, then it will be, "If I had known the answer, I would already have told it to you yesterday."?

Can't we theorize that because the time of "knowing the answer" and the time of "telling it to you yesterday" overlaps, we can use "knew" instead of "known"? If this is possible the so called "extended present" by Declerck will not be necessary, I feel.

CalifJim · Answer

pructusa. If I knew the answer, I would already have told it to you yesterday.Does the underlined part mean that (A) I do not know today ~~too~~ either?

I find that question impossible to answer. For me, "If I knew the answer" in that sentence is ambiguous as to the timing. I lean toward saying that it implies that I didn't know then and I don't know now (I think that's what Declerck would say), but others might interpret it as your (B).

The ambiguity is that 'knew' after 'if' can be taken either as the hypothetical present or as the real past. Typically, we treat a past tense (like 'knew') as the hypothetical present when the accompanying clause has 'would', but you have 'would have' here (would ... have told), so there is a tendency to treat 'knew' as the real past, not as a hypothetical present. This happens more often with stative verbs (like know).

Another example: Someone might say If he had the money, he would have given it to you by now.
Corresponding to that we have the technically correct version: If he had had the money, ...

To my ear, If he had had implies he did not have the money at some time in the past, but If he had (in that sentence) implies the same thing while also (possibly) suggesting that he doesn't have the money now either. I think this is what Declerck is talking about. The situation (of not having the money) extends into the present. These are just my personal impressions; as far as I know, there is no standard interpretation for the If he had version.

pructusIf I still don't know the answer, then it will be, "If I had known the answer, I would already have told it to you yesterday."?

No. The other way around. "If I had known" is more specifically about the past. It says you did not know in the past, but it doesn't say whether you know now or not.

pructusCan't we theorize that because the time of "knowing the answer" and the time of "telling it to you yesterday" overlaps, we can use "knew" instead of "known"?

You can theorize that or any other of a number of explanations for why people use one or the other (knew / had known) in any given situation, but I don't think that such theorizing really removes the ambiguity of 'knew' when it is used that way. As far as I know, native speakers don't follow any strict rule for their choices in these cases—although perhaps Declerck has found some pattern that I am unaware of.

I'd say it's better not to use the ambiguous ones.

CJ

Pructus · Answer

Oh, Thank you so much, CJ...

Your explanations really solve and arrange this labyrinth of conditional part, in theory and also in actual use.

Had spoken at the meeting today

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