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Pructus Posted 12 years ago
Grammar

Had PP and Simple Past

Hello, Members and Gurus!!

a. If Mark hadn’t helped Brown, Brown wouldn’t have passed the exam.
b. If Mark didn’t help Brown, Brown wouldn’t have passed the exam.
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Can we infer from the two sentences that....
b. implies that Mark’s help continued for the whole past time until Brown passed the exam, while a. doesn’t.
In a., we cannot know if Mark’s help continued for the whole past until Brown passed the exam.
  

Top answer

Hi, a. If Mark hadn’t helped Brown, he wouldn’t have passed the exam. Correct.

— Hrsanei

  • Hi, a.
  • If Mark hadn’t helped Brown, he wouldn’t have passed the exam.
  • Correct.
  • Type III conditional sentence.
  • b.
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14 Answers
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Hi,
a. If Mark hadn’t helped Brown, he wouldn’t have passed the exam. Correct. Type III conditional sentence.
b. If Mark didn’t help Brown, he wouldn’t have passed the exam. Mixed conditional but incorrect as it is meaningless
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Thanks hrsanei~
However, the structure is grammatically correct, but it is meaningless. It indicates that passing exam in the past depended on the helping in present.
Then, I'd like to know what you might think about "If it were not for his help, they would have failed".

Is this also meaningless?
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That sentence also suffers from the same problem, but it is possible if the condition is continuous and true for present as well, however, I wouldn't still use it.
Hamid
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pructusIf it were not for his help, they would have failed.
Stative verbs are often seen in the simple past after if where the past perfect is expected. 'were' is a typical example, especially in the idiom "If it were not for ...". Still, "If it hadn't been for ..." is the "more correct" form for a situation in the past.

CJ
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Thanks a lot, CJ....

I heard that in the examples below...

a. If he owned a car, he wouldn't have travelled on foot.
b. If he had owned a car, he wouldn't have travelled on foot.
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a. implies that he still doesn't own a car and b. doesn't.

If that's true, then shouldn't the type a. be meaningful?
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Thanks a lot, hrsanei~
hrsanei but it is possible if the condition is continuous and true for present as well,
If that's so, then in the example below..

If Mark didn’t help Brown, Brown wouldn’t have passed the exam.

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Can't we think that Mark's help was continuous and true for the present as well?
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The sentence is wrong because it refers to the help that happened before passing the exam, therefore, past perfect has to be used.
Hamid
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Thanks hrsanei~!!

A little clearer but still vague....
How about the examples below.

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a. If you wanted it, you would have asked me for it.
b. We would have come over anyway even if we didn't have tickets.
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"wanted" in a. and "didn't have" in b., both do not seem to be continuous to the present.
Both a. and b. seem to be continuo
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Hi,
Read CJ's comment above, it will answer your questions.
Hamid
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pructusI heard that in the examples below, a. implies that he still doesn't own a car and b. doesn't
a. If he owned a car, he wouldn't have travelled on foot.
b. If he had owned a car, he wouldn't have travelled on foot
The implication you label a. might occur to some people, but not to others. I had to think a while to understand what implicat
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