Had Been vs Was.

Question

In the course of critting a novel, I encountered a sentence of the following form:
"The United States had been founded by slaveholders."

Instinctively I changed 'had been' to 'was,' but decided to research the issue a bit.
One grammar site says the 'had been' form is past perfect continuous (or progressive) tense and requires a present participle, as in "He had been walking ..."
So "The United States was founded by slaveholders" would seem better.
But what about something like:
"When we arrived, the package had been delivered."?

I suspect lots of people use this form, but is it
technically grammatical, and if so by what rationale?

"When we arrived, the package was delivered." doesn't work. Different meaning.
"When we arrived, the package was already delivered." works, of course.
What about that "had beem delivered"?
Servo

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]In the course of critting a novel, I encountered a sentence of the following form: "The United States had been founded by slaveholders." Instinctively I changed 'had been' to 'was,' but decided to research the issue a bit.[/nq]
The Adams family, Alexander Hamilton, John Hancock, Josiah Bartlett and Stephen Hopkins to name just a few of the Founding Fathers were not slaveholders. So no matter how much you correct the grammar the statement is incorrect.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]In the course of critting a novel, I encountered a ... to 'was,' but decided to research the issue a bit.[/nq]
[nq:1]The Adams family, Alexander Hamilton, John Hancock, JosiahBartlett and Stephen Hopkins to name just a few of the Founding Fatherswere not slaveholders. So no matter how much you correct thegrammar the statement is incorrect.[/nq]
That's quite beside the point. People can say
things which are true and things which are untrue
in novels.
I wasn't critiquing the historical knowledge of
a character who said this.
Servo

Usenet · Answer

There is no such thing as an innocent post when you bring in politics.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]In the course of critting a novel, I encountered a sentence of the following form: "The United States had been ... Different meaning. "When we arrived, the package was already delivered." works, of course. What about that "had beem delivered"? Servo[/nq]
See the discussion of the passive voice at
http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/passive.htm
"Had been founded" and similar uses of the past participle would be used when writing about historical matters to indicate what the people at the time in question would have discussed using the simple past. "This company was founded ten years ago." ... "The president of the company pointed out that it had been founded ten years before."

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]That's quite beside the point. People can say things which ... the historical knowledge of a character who said this. Servo[/nq]
[nq:1]There is no such thing as an innocent post when you bringin politics.[/nq]
Well, it's good that we have you around to set
things straight, then.
S

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]In the course of critting a novel, I encountered a ... delivered."works, of course. What about that "had beem delivered"? Servo[/nq]
[nq:1]See the discussion of the passive voice at http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/passive.htm "Had been founded" and similar uses of the past participlewould be ... it had been founded ten years before." Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com[/nq]
Thanks, Raymond.
Servo

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]But what about something like: "When we arrived, the package had been delivered."? I suspect lots of people use this form, but is it technically grammatical, and if so by what rationale?[/nq]
This sentence is grammatical and the rationale is
negative: it breaks no rules.
The sentence is also chronologically inverted.
It prevents the earlier event after the later one. We could equally write:
"The package had been delivered before we arrived," depending on whether we want the subject of the
sentence to be "we" or "package."

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]But what about something like: "When we arrived, the package ... is it technically grammatical, and if so by what rationale?[/nq]
[nq:1]This sentence is grammatical and the rationale is negative: it breaks no rules. The sentence is also chronologically inverted. It ... been delivered before we arrived," depending on whether we want the subject of the sentence to be "we" or "package."[/nq]
Thanks, Don. It's pretty clear now. I finally found parts-of-speech examples on websites as well that
shed some light on this.
Servo

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]In the course of critting a novel, I encountered a sentence of the following form: "The United States had been founded by slaveholders." Instinctively I changed 'had been' to 'was,' but decided to research the issue a bit.[/nq]
In context, "had been" was probably correct. What was the context?
[nq:1]One grammar site says the 'had been' form is past perfect continuous (or progressive) tense and requires a present participle, as in "He had been walking ..."[/nq]
I doubt it said it quite like that. What site?
[nq:1]So "The United States was founded by slaveholders" would seem better. But what about something like: "When we arrived, the package had been delivered."? I suspect lots of people use this form, but is it technically grammatical,[/nq]
Yes.
[nq:1]and if so by what rationale?[/nq]
Because one thing happened before the other. It's like "When we arrived, John had left."
Adrian

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