had been

Question

HiPlease tell me if had been is OK here.I first met Sarah in 1992 when she came to study Music in our college. After that we had been in touch for two years.

AlpheccaStars · Accepted Answer

Past perfect is used for an event earlier than (not later than) another event.

CalifJim · Answer

vsureshHiPlease tell me if had been is OK here.I first met Sarah in 1992 when she came to study Music in our college. After that we had been in touch for two years.

No. Absent any other text to establish a reference point, the past perfect makes no sense there.

The meeting of Sarah establishes a reference point in 1992, and "had been in touch" signals a time before 1992. But being in touch with her before meeting her for the first time sounds to me like some sort of science fiction time travel arrangement!

CJ

Vsuresh · Answer

Thank you, AlpheccaStars.

Thank you for your explanation, CJ. Now I understand it.

Vsuresh · Answer

Hi Teachers
I have a question related to past perfect.
(I want to confirm if past perfect can be used even in situations where two actions are involved.)

We use present perfect to refer to something till the present moment.

I have completed reading four books (so far).

Similarly can we use past perfect with reference till a certain time in the past. (Here it is without any reference to anything that happened after)

By the middle of January I had passed four exams in the course.

Please give your comments.

CalifJim · Answer

vsuresh(I want to confirm if past perfect can be used even in situations where two actions are involved.)

But your example make it seem you are interested in situations where two actions are not involved.

vsureshWe use present perfect to refer to something till the present moment. ...
Similarly can we use past perfect with reference till a certain time in the past.

Quite true.

vsureshBy the middle of January I had passed four exams in the course.

I'm not sure what kind of comments you would like concerning this sentence. It's an illustration of the principle stated above. I think it's understood that the sentence is excerpted from a longer text in which the past reference point has already been established before this sentence appears, most likely something of the form, "I took a course in chemistry last winter". Now 'the middle of January' can be seen to be within the reference time of the chemistry course, and the passing of the exams occurred before then.

CJ

Vsuresh · Answer

CalifJimBut your example make it seem you are interested in situations where two actions are not involved.

I'm sorry,CJ. I meant missed "not"
My sentence should have read:
I want to confirm if past perfect can be used even in situations where two actions are not involved.

CalifJimI'm not sure what kind of comments you would like concerning this sentence. It's an illustration of the principle stated above. I think it's understood that the sentence is excerpted from a longer text in which the past reference point has already been established before this sentence appears, most likely something of the form, "I took a course in chemistry last winter". Now 'the middle of January' can be seen to be within the reference time of the chemistry course, and the passing of the exams occurred before then.

Thank you. I am able to understand it. As usual your explanation is very helpful. Thank you.

Another question, please.
Here is an idea expressed using past tense
I did not visit India between January and November 2013.

My question: Can we use past perfect here just as we use I have not been to India since July last year (from a certain point in the past to the present moment)?

CalifJim · Answer

vsuresh Can we use past perfect here just as we use I have not been to India since July last year (from a certain point in the past to the present moment)?

Yes. The two tenses are analogous. The reference point for the present perfect is the present moment. The reference point for the past perfect is a moment in the past. The difference is that you don't have to establish the reference point in the case of the present perfect. Only one moment can be the present moment. But you do have to establish the reference point in the past because there are many points in the past you might use as a reference point.

I have not been to India since July. [between July (earlier) and now (later)]
I had not been to India since July. [between July (earlier) and some unstated point in the past (later)]

Note how uninformative the second sentence is. We aren't even told the reference point. This is why the past perfect is a 'dependent' tense. It needs a set-up, a situation in the past that we can relate it to.

I called a friend in India two months ago. During the call I happened to mention that I had not been to India since July.

Now there is a reasonable motivation for using the past perfect because now there is enough said to establish which moment in the past is the reference point. The call two months ago is the reference point.

CJ

Vsuresh · Answer

Thank you, CJ.
Your explanation is horribly good!

CalifJim · Answer

vsureshhorribly good!

Funny! Is that an expression in Indian English?

CJ

Vsuresh · Answer

No, CJ.
I did think you would ask this question.

I remember coming across this expression in a short story, The Story Teller by Saki (H H Munro)

"She did all that she was told, she was always truthful, she kept her clothes clean, ate milk puddings as though they were jam tarts, learned her lessons perfectly, and was polite in her manners."

"Was she pretty?" asked the bigger of the small girls.

"Not as pretty as any of you," said the bachelor, "but she was horribly good."

I think it can be called an oxymoron because it not sensible but has a dramatic effect on the reader.

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