...great thinkers whom...

Question

They enthusiastically discussed the great thinkers whom they have studied.Is "whom" right there? Are "the great thinkers" subjects?Thanks.

RandomGuy · Accepted Answer

SnarfIs "whom" right there?

Yes.

SnarfAre "the great thinkers" subjects?

No, it’s the object of discussed.

Snarf · Answer

So it's dependent on "they" which is a subject, right?

Canadian45 · Answer

Snarf....They enthusiastically discussed the great thinkers whom they have studied.

Is "whom" right there? Yes, but "whom" can be omitted. Are "the great thinkers" subjects? No, if they were subjects, 'who' would be correct.
for example..... 'They enthusiastically discussed the great thinkers who lived in the sixteenth century.'

add:
If at that same time the pronoun is the object of a preceding verb and the subject of a later verb, the subject pronoun 'who' is correct. The same applies to 'whomever' and 'whoever'.

Canadian45 · Answer

SnarfSo it's dependent on "they" which is a subject, right? No, it's not dependent on "they".

RandomGuy · Answer

SnarfSo it's dependent on "they" which is a subject, right?

I’m not sure I understand your question.

This is the way you should analyze the sentence:

They enthusiastically discussed the great thinkers whom they have studied.

discussed = verb
the great thinkers = direct object of the verb discussed
whom they have studied = dependent clause
they = subject
(have) studied = verb
whom = direct object of the verb studied

(You could say that the great thinkers whom they have studied is the "complete" direct object of discussed.)

canadian45No, if they were subjects, 'who' would be correct.

I wouldn’t go along with that.

The great thinkers whom they have studied were enthusiastically discussed.

The great thinkers is now the subject, but whom remains the object of the verb studied.

Canadian45 · Answer

Aspara GusI wouldn’t go along with that.
The great thinkers whom they have studied were enthusiastically discussed.
The great thinkers is now the subject, but whom remains the object of the verb studied.

I don't mean that.
I mean that if in the original sentence there were a verb that 'whom' would be the subject of, 'who' infact would be correct.
See the example sentence in my original post.

RandomGuy · Answer

canadian45See the example sentence in my original post.

Skimmed over it.

They enthusiastically discussed the great thinkers who lived in the sixteenth century.

I still don’t get it. The great thinkers is still an object. The example isn’t consistent with No, if they were subjects, 'who' would be correct.

Canadian45 · Answer

Aspara GusThey enthusiastically discussed the great thinkers who lived in the sixteenth century.
I still don’t get it. The great thinkers is still an object. Yes, it's still an object of "discussed",but in my example sentence it's also the subject of tthe verb "lived".

The example isn’t consistent with No, if they were subjects, 'who' would be correct.

Snarf asked "Is "whom" right there? Are "the great thinkers" subjects?" I answered "No, if they were subjects, 'who' would be correct." "they" referred to "great thinkers, not to the "They" at the beginning of Snarf's original sentence.

'they' lived in the sixteenth century, not 'them' lived..... , confirming that the subject pronoun "who" would be correct.

another example...
Give the money to whomever you wish. (give it to them) Object pronoun is correct.
Give the money to whoever needs it most. (they need it most) Subject pronoun is correct.

When there is a conflict between using an object pronoun or a subject pronoun, the subject pronoun is used.

RandomGuy · Answer

canadian45Yes, it's still an object of "discussed",but in my example sentence it's also the subject of tthe verb "lived".

No. A word cannot be both a subject and an object. In your example, who is the subject of the relative clause who lived in the sixteenth century, which defines the object the great thinkers.

canadian45Snarf asked "Is "whom" right there? Are "the great thinkers" subjects?" I answered "No, if they were subjects, 'who' would be correct." "they" referred to "great thinkers, not to the "They" at the beginning of Snarf's original sentence.

No misinterpretation here.

canadian45'they' lived in the sixteenth century, not 'them' lived..... , confirming that the subject pronoun "who" would be correct.

No disagreement here.

canadian45Give the money to whomever you wish. (give it to them) Object pronoun is correct.
Give the money to whoever needs it most. (they need it most) Subject pronoun is correct.

And none here either.

canadian45When there is a conflict between using an object pronoun or a subject pronoun, the subject pronoun is used.

Hmm. I wouldn’t say that. In the first of your two examples above, whomever is the object of the implied preposition to (whomever you wish to give it to), and in the second, whoever is the subject of whoever needs it most. It all depends on the word’s function in the sentence.

Canadian45 · Answer

Aspara Gus wrote" No. A word cannot be both a subject and an object. In your example, who is the subject of the relative clause who lived in the sixteenth century, which defines the object the great thinkers."
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That's why we have to choose one or the other, as in the "whoever'whomever" examples in my previous post.

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