Gotten vs got

Question

Which form would you prefer: gotten or got?What do you think of this?http://www.gotten.eu)

Usenet · Accepted Answer

In your own trollish case 'misbegotten'
would be the most appropriate.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Which form would you prefer: gotten or got?[/nq]
Tough one Both words have been with us "since always".

~Iain

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Which form would you prefer: gotten or got?[/nq]
[nq:1]Tough one Both words have been with us "since always". ~Iain[/nq]
The use of "gotten" is generally considered to be one of the chief indicators of North American origin. A common misconception by non-native speakers is that Americans/Canadians use it all the time as the past participle of the verb "get."
Where "have got" means "have" or "possess," no North American uses "gotten":
Amelda Marcos has gotten thousands of shoes.
"Gotten" is generally used in all the other senses that the verb "get" can have, as in "become," "acquire," "receive," etc.

I've gotten tired of being tired all the time.
Joe's spending money like water. He's gotten a dozen rare stamps to add to his collection in the last few days.
Has anyone here gotten a threatening phone call recently?
Canadians are inconsistent in their use of gotten. Some use it all the time, some use it most of the time, and some try to avoid it completely.
I would avoid it if you're trying to impress a Brit. On the other hand, if someone insists on correcting you and categorically states that "gotten" is utterly WRONG, well, you're dealing with an illiterate poseur, so add that to your stock of knowledge about the person, smile, and walk away.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Canadians are inconsistent in their use of gotten. Some use it all the time, some use it most of the time, and some try to avoid it completely.[/nq]
I am curious. What do you base this statement on?
[nq:1]I would avoid it if you're trying to impress a Brit.[/nq]
I would agree with this. I have had a Brit. correct my usage.
Vic

Usenet · Answer

Sorry this took so long...My statement on what Canadians use or do not use is based on my personal experience with Canadians, both here in Greece and in the States. I meet a lot of them in the ELT business.

I also saw an article on this in some TESOL magazine somewhere a few years back, but since I can't tell you where, well, that means less than nothing.
My primary usage manual for British English, Fowler's Modern English Usage, 3rd edition, definitely calls it NORTH American, indicating that both Canadians and Americans use it in the same way, but R.W. Burchfield, the author, is occcasionally a bit strange about American English issues, and like all Brits tends to make overly general statements about American English. The Oxford Guide to English Usage makes no mention of "gotten." American Heritage Book of English Usage says nothing about Canadian English. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage backs Burchfields up, though, in calling "gotten" a North American phenomenon. The Columbia Guide to Standard American English labels the phenomenon American and not North American.

So, I have no definitive answer on what Canadians do or do not do with the word "gotten."

And as for what Brits do with "gotten," well, that's their problem. In the final analysis, most language usage questions are really arguments about nothing, until people start insisting that their usage is better than yours and therefore their minds are sharper than yours.

If you want to fry your ignorant critic, however, there's a nice historical article on the phenomenon in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage. Ask about "aluminum" while you're at it.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I am curious. What do you base this statement on? I would agree with this. I have had a Brit. correct my usage. Vic[/nq]
[nq:1]Sorry this took so long...My statement on what Canadians use or do not use is based on my personal experience ... a nice historical article on the phenomenon in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage. Ask about "aluminum" while you're at it.[/nq]
The Brits do indeed have a problem with 'gotten'. Shakespeare used it frequently. So any Brit that quibbles about 'got/gotten' can only be classified as misbegotten -:)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]The Brits do indeed have a problem with 'gotten'. Shakespeare used it frequently. So any Brit that quibbles about 'got/gotten' can only be classified as misbegotten -:)[/nq]
Well, Americans went one way on "gotten," the British went another. I've spent six years here in Greece surrounded by British-based English language teaching materials and there's **** little understanding of issues in UK/US usage. Occasionally, that fact costs me a good deal of money, and I have a good stock of bitterness built up about it.

All the same, I have yet to meet a Briton with a university degree worth more than a sheet of toilet paper who insisted that all Americans speak and write a miserable patois of a tongue and nothing more. The real quibblers among them are at best science graduates with delusions of grandeur, and at worst low trash, but misbegotten? No, I wouldn't go that far.
At the same time, Americans have our Flipper Mikes to remind us just how far down the bottom of the barrel is in our poor nation.

Canadians, John, well...tell us about got/gotten, could you? How does it work for you kids up there? Got any books on Canadian usage on your shelf?

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1][/nq]
[nq:2]The Brits do indeed have a problem with 'gotten'. Shakespeare ... quibbles about 'got/gotten' can only be classified as misbegotten -:)[/nq]
[nq:1]Well, Americans went one way on "gotten," the British went another. I've spent six years here in Greece surrounded by ... best science graduates with delusions of grandeur, and at worst low trash, but misbegotten? No, I wouldn't go that far.[/nq]
We're getting close to agreement here. We both dislike pretentiousness in correcting the language of others.
(I am particularly amused by Brits who assume because I no longer have an upper crust accent that I'm open game for their pretentiousness. I am a former Brit, with a father who did a stint an an ESL teacher. Fowler and Fowlers' 'The King's English' replaced daily bible readings in my Brit childhood.)
You seem to have missed my point that Brit pretenders lay claim to the language of Shakespeare for usage support, yet often do not know Shakespeare's usage. An interesting self-contradiction.

You also missed the fact that there was an -:) after 'misbegotten'.

I have often used 'illgotten' and 'misbegotten' to illustrate to carpers that 'gotten' is a viable form.
[nq:1]At the same time, Americans have our Flipper Mikes to remind us just how far down the bottom of the ... could you? How does it work for you kids up there? Got any books on Canadian usage on your shelf?[/nq]
Yeah, I got stuff on my shelf. Wot self-respectin English teach don't?
Canadians tread a middle ground between US/Brit usage.

The Houghton Mifflin Dictionary of Canadian English (based on The American Heritage Dictionary) was begun in 1969.

My 1982 version simply lists 'got' as PT & PP of 'get'. And 'gotten' as PP of 'get'. Without further comment.
This, despite the fact that above dictionary had a very impressive editorial board, including HL Smith, Prof of Linguistics at UB. All ready willing & able to make judgements on usage -:)

(HL Smith a figure known or unknown to you in your undergrad days in upstate NY?)
The Oxford Dictionary of Canadian English, disk version, lists 'got' as PT & PP and '"gotten" as N.Amer. usage of PP.'

Not new if you consider Fowler's 1957 'Dictionary of American-English Usage' treatment of 'got/gotten.'

Still on my shelf from undergrad days.
Best advice is McGraw-Hill 'Handbook of English':
'Both "have got" and "have gotten" are acceptable terms. Your choice will depend upon your speech habits or on the rhythm of the sentence you are speaking or
writing.'
Betcha even the most pretentiously fastidious Brit would not say, 'I've got tired of you.'

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1](I am particularly amused by Brits who assume because I no longer have an upper crust accent that I'm open ... a stint an an ESL teacher. Fowler and Fowlers' 'The King's English' replaced daily bible readings in my Brit childhood.)[/nq]
The Brothers Grimm indeed. My sympathies.
[nq:1]This, despite the fact that above dictionary had a very impressive editorial board, including HL Smith, Prof of Linguistics at ... judgements on usage -:) (HL Smith a figure known or unknown to you in your undergrad days in upstate NY?)[/nq]
(First, he searches my posts, and then, he tests me...go figure.)

Henry Lee Smith, Jr., Most famous work co-authored with George L. Trager, An Outline of English Structure , 1956.
The magic of computers. It was a real *** finding out what HL stood for. No, I'd never heard of the man before today, neither in my undergraduate days in NY nor in my postgraduate days in RI (next thing I know, you'll be searching admission records).
After all, he died two years before I was born...(birth records now).

So I'd say you've got some forty or so years on me.
[nq:1]Betcha even the most pretentiously fastidious Brit would not say, 'I've got tired of you.'[/nq]
Mebbe.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1][/nq]
I did not search your posts. I simply read them. You said you were from upstate NY.
I did an MA in English from Buff State - 1970 -72, at which time HL Smith was very
much alive and one of America's leading linguistic profs at neighbouring UB.

Natural enough for me to wonder if he was known to you. Or did you not study lingustics?
[nq:1]Henry Lee Smith, Jr., Most famous work co-authored with George L. Trager, An Outline of English Structure , 1956. ... two years before I was born...(birth records now). So I'd say you've got some forty or so years on me.[/nq]
If I've got 40 years on you you're only 24. Still in your salad days?

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