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Usenet Posted 22 years ago
Usage
Geminate and unassimilated nasal consonants in English
[nq:1]Just as the /n/ in "sink" gets assimilated to a velar /N/ to match the following velar /k/, the extra ... because English doesn't preserve geminate nasals. The result is /'g@v@rm@nt/, which is normal, except for hypercorrectors. Cf. "mnemonic", "hymn", etc.[/nq]
He was certainly wrong in this comment about "hypercorrectors", nor do I believe, nor suspect, that "gover ment" is a more usual pronunciation than "govern ment", but his comments raise some questions that caused me to start compiling some lists. That takes time, for someone like me who doesn't spend his time on matters linguistic; hence the delay in this reply.
But before we get to this list, another issue arises: could it be that some pronunciations prevail in the very largest cities and nowhere else, regardless of what geographic region they're in? By "the very largest" I mean to exclude cities like Boston or Seattle that most people regard as large cities but that are dwarfed by NYC, LA, Chicago, and the like. I don't know how I have acquired this impression, but for some reason I have come to suspect that "gover ment" and "Feb yoo ary" are in that category. (I've always said "government" and "February" with no silent consonants and, John Lawler to the contrary notwith- standing, I think those are majority pronunciations.
OK, now some lists:
Words that in their usual pronunciation have "m" followed by "n" without assimilation:
hymnal solemnity damnation autumnal condemnation
indemnify amnesia calumny Sumner remnant gymnast
chimney insomnia randomness columnist
Words that in their usual pronunciation have "n" followed by "m" without assimilation:
inmate imprisonment assignment entertainment enlightenment environment government enmity refinement discernment unmet unmade alignment "question mark"
Words with audibly geminate nasal consonants:
unnatural unnecessary non-neighbor non-native roommate
Words with "n" followed by a "k" or "g" sound in which "n" sounds as in "not" and not as in "king":
incomplete non-Catholic incoherent inconsistent un-Christian uncooperative unkempt ironclad Vancouver "van Gogh"
Words with "n" followed by "p" or "b" in which "n" sounds as in "not" rather than like "m":
commonplace
Another word with consecutive nasal consonants without assimilation:
Kingman (a proper name)
Unlike Italian, orthographically geminate consonants in English do not usually sound geminate, e.g., you don't hear two consecutive "t"s in "butter" nor two consecutive "n"s in "manner" (words like "manner" must be what John Lawler had in mind (and think about that phrase "in mind", with its "n" followed by "m"; should it be added to one of these lists?)). But one case in which I hear a double consonant in English even thought there's orthographically only one, is in the word "eighteen". Mike Hardy
He was certainly wrong in this comment about "hypercorrectors", nor do I believe, nor suspect, that "gover ment" is a more usual pronunciation than "govern ment", but his comments raise some questions that caused me to start compiling some lists. That takes time, for someone like me who doesn't spend his time on matters linguistic; hence the delay in this reply.
But before we get to this list, another issue arises: could it be that some pronunciations prevail in the very largest cities and nowhere else, regardless of what geographic region they're in? By "the very largest" I mean to exclude cities like Boston or Seattle that most people regard as large cities but that are dwarfed by NYC, LA, Chicago, and the like. I don't know how I have acquired this impression, but for some reason I have come to suspect that "gover ment" and "Feb yoo ary" are in that category. (I've always said "government" and "February" with no silent consonants and, John Lawler to the contrary notwith- standing, I think those are majority pronunciations.
OK, now some lists:
Words that in their usual pronunciation have "m" followed by "n" without assimilation:
hymnal solemnity damnation autumnal condemnation
indemnify amnesia calumny Sumner remnant gymnast
chimney insomnia randomness columnist
Words that in their usual pronunciation have "n" followed by "m" without assimilation:
inmate imprisonment assignment entertainment enlightenment environment government enmity refinement discernment unmet unmade alignment "question mark"
Words with audibly geminate nasal consonants:
unnatural unnecessary non-neighbor non-native roommate
Words with "n" followed by a "k" or "g" sound in which "n" sounds as in "not" and not as in "king":
incomplete non-Catholic incoherent inconsistent un-Christian uncooperative unkempt ironclad Vancouver "van Gogh"
Words with "n" followed by "p" or "b" in which "n" sounds as in "not" rather than like "m":
commonplace
Another word with consecutive nasal consonants without assimilation:
Kingman (a proper name)
Unlike Italian, orthographically geminate consonants in English do not usually sound geminate, e.g., you don't hear two consecutive "t"s in "butter" nor two consecutive "n"s in "manner" (words like "manner" must be what John Lawler had in mind (and think about that phrase "in mind", with its "n" followed by "m"; should it be added to one of these lists?)). But one case in which I hear a double consonant in English even thought there's orthographically only one, is in the word "eighteen". Mike Hardy
Top answer
[nq:2]Just as the /n/ in "sink" gets assimilated to a ... which is normal, except for hypercorrectors. Cf.
- [nq:2]Just as the /n/ in "sink" gets assimilated to a ...
- which is normal, except for hypercorrectors.
- Cf.
- [/nq] [nq:1]He was certainly wrong in this comment about "hypercorrectors", nor do I believe, nor suspect, that "gover ment" is a ...
- [/nq] Maybe assimilation is commoner in Britain, where we speak the language as a native tongue.
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38 Answers
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[nq:2]Just as the /n/ in "sink" gets assimilated to a ... which is normal, except for hypercorrectors. Cf. "mnemonic", "hymn", etc.[/nq]
[nq:1]He was certainly wrong in this comment about "hypercorrectors", nor do I believe, nor suspect, that "gover ment" is a ... takes time, for someone like me who doesn't spend his time on matters linguistic; hence the delay in this reply.[/nq]
Maybe ass
[nq:1]He was certainly wrong in this comment about "hypercorrectors", nor do I believe, nor suspect, that "gover ment" is a ... takes time, for someone like me who doesn't spend his time on matters linguistic; hence the delay in this reply.[/nq]
Maybe ass
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[nq:1]But before we get to this list, another issue arises: could it be that some pronunciations prevail in the very ... and "February" with no silent consonants and, John Lawler to the contrary notwith- standing, I think those are majority pronunciations.[/nq]
John Jacob Lawler, the Joe DiMaggio of Linguistics, is certainly wrong some of the time, much as Anthony Wedgwood Cooper is right some
John Jacob Lawler, the Joe DiMaggio of Linguistics, is certainly wrong some of the time, much as Anthony Wedgwood Cooper is right some
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[nq:1]"Entenmann's", the baked-goods company, which is pronounced /'Ent@,m@nz/.[/nq]
Maybe in obscure & negligible national nooks, but in General American it's more like (Ent?nmnz) or (En?nmnz), with the question mark standing for a glottal stop. Those schwas of yours and Professor Lawler's last too long to make it!
Maybe in obscure & negligible national nooks, but in General American it's more like (Ent?nmnz) or (En?nmnz), with the question mark standing for a glottal stop. Those schwas of yours and Professor Lawler's last too long to make it!
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[nq:1]Words that in their usual pronunciation have "n" followed by "m" without assimilation: inmate imprisonment assignment entertainment enlightenment environment government enmity refinement discernment unmet unmade alignment "question mark" Words with audibly geminate nasal consonants: unnatural unnecessary non-neighbor non-native roommate[/nq]
"Monmouth" would be in the second group, at le
"Monmouth" would be in the second group, at le
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[nq:1]OTOH, there's some assimilation in proper names. Examples include "Monmouth (New Jersey)", as Young Joey has noted; and "Entenmann's", the baked-goods company, which is pronounced /'Ent@,m@nz/ (that B. Wickham will agree with).[/nq]
There may be some assimilation in "Monmouth", but, contrary to Young Joey's claim, it's not complete. Even at the extreme, there is still quite a bit of "n"
There may be some assimilation in "Monmouth", but, contrary to Young Joey's claim, it's not complete. Even at the extreme, there is still quite a bit of "n"
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[nq:1]Maybe assimilation is commoner in Britain, where we speak the language as a native tongue.[/nq]
Most Americans also speak English as a native tongue, and in many respects a more traditional form of English than that that prevails among the educated people of southern England, whose Received Pronunciation is a late-20th-century innovation (not to say that there was no Received Pronunciati
Most Americans also speak English as a native tongue, and in many respects a more traditional form of English than that that prevails among the educated people of southern England, whose Received Pronunciation is a late-20th-century innovation (not to say that there was no Received Pronunciati
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Thus spake Michael J Hardy:
[nq:2]Maybe assimilation is commoner in Britain, where we speak the language as a native tongue.[/nq]
[nq:1]Most Americans also speak English as a native tongue, and in many respects a more traditional form of English than that that prevails among the educated people of southern England,[/nq]
Myth.
[nq:1]whose Received Pronunciation is a late-20th-centur
[nq:2]Maybe assimilation is commoner in Britain, where we speak the language as a native tongue.[/nq]
[nq:1]Most Americans also speak English as a native tongue, and in many respects a more traditional form of English than that that prevails among the educated people of southern England,[/nq]
Myth.
[nq:1]whose Received Pronunciation is a late-20th-centur
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[nq:2]He was certainly wrong in this comment about "hypercorrectors", nor ... time on matters linguistic; hence the delay in this reply.[/nq]
[nq:1]Maybe assimilation is commoner in Britain, where we speak the language as a native tongue. I'd agree with John, and I'd say that many of the words you list (eg. "imprisonment") are good examples of assimilation. Another one I notice often is "sandw
[nq:1]Maybe assimilation is commoner in Britain, where we speak the language as a native tongue. I'd agree with John, and I'd say that many of the words you list (eg. "imprisonment") are good examples of assimilation. Another one I notice often is "sandw
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[nq:2]Maybe assimilation is commoner in Britain, where we speak the language as a native tongue.[/nq]
[nq:1]Most Americans also speak English as a native tongue, and in many respects a more traditional form of English than that that prevails among the educated people of southern England,[/nq]
What I mean is that English in England has continued to develop naturally but in the American vari
[nq:1]Most Americans also speak English as a native tongue, and in many respects a more traditional form of English than that that prevails among the educated people of southern England,[/nq]
What I mean is that English in England has continued to develop naturally but in the American vari
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[nq:2]Words that in their usual pronunciation have "n" followed by ... environment government enmity refinement discernment unmet unmade alignment "question mark"[/nq]
[nq:1]OTOH, there's some assimilation in proper names. Examples include "Monmouth (New Jersey)", as Young Joey has noted; and "Entenmann's", the baked-goods company, which is pronounced /'Ent@,m@nz/ (that B. Wickham will agree w
[nq:1]OTOH, there's some assimilation in proper names. Examples include "Monmouth (New Jersey)", as Young Joey has noted; and "Entenmann's", the baked-goods company, which is pronounced /'Ent@,m@nz/ (that B. Wickham will agree w
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