Gadget freaks: camera decision.

Question

Hypothetically, in today's market, if someone has $3000 to spend on a camera for making small, high-quality movies, does this person spend his money on a super high-quality 3CCD camera in standard resolution, like a Panasonic AG-DVX100B (http://tinyurl.com/556xne) or does one spend his money on some version of an HD camcorder? The camera must be hand-holdable, so as close to handi-cam size as possible.
It's a tough price-point, because it seems like the buyer has to make a decision between a very well-accessorized, near-professional SD camera or a somewhat bare-bones HD camera.
Regular readers of MWSM might note that this hypothetical buyer posted the same question a year ago. If you're curious, that $3000 went into a way cool National Guitar, and the hypothetical buyer spent the year sponging off friends with better gear than he has.
(and yes, lighting is probably as, if not more, important than camera, but our hypothetical shooter already has lighting covered).

Alan Brooks

A with an Underwood
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Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Hypothetically, in today's market, if someone has $3000 to spend on a camera for making small, high-quality movies, does this ... resolution, like a Panasonic AG-DVX100B () or does one spend his money on some version of an HD camcorder? [/nq]
Tough call. I've seen a used-but-mint Canon XL-HD1 on eBay for about $5K; that would be my choice because I like the XL format and the features. It really comes down to, how do you plan on using it? I absolutely need things like manual focus and manual exposure and all the rest of the manual controls, because I need to be able to control the image at that level - but I'm often working with a DP. If most of what you're doing is one-man-band stuff, hand-held and set to 'auto everything,' then you probably don't. The XL platform isn't quite hand-held; even though it's small and light it's more shoulder- mounted, but that's my preference. I'm usually up on sticks or on my stedicam anyway.
HD is here to stay, of course, but there's a LOT of SD material out there too, gear as well as content. A good question to ask might be how long you expect the small films you're planning on making, to last? A ripping little production of Catholic School Vampires, in whatever format, is going to be disposable entertainment, but your version of John Sayles' Faces or Return of the Sycaucus Seven is going to be something you'll want to pull out and show to people over the course of years. Suppose you buy your new camera tomorrow and have your film finished by spring - where do you expect that film to be in, say, five years? Realistically?
And lastly, perhaps most importantly, what's your business plan? Is this something you want to do repeatedly, with your own money, or are you looking to move up a notch or two with each outing? Pretty much the first step up along those lines is renting better gear, rather than using the stuff you already own. I'm a huge fan of owning the gear yourself (which is why I have a storage closet full of gear) but the first thing that comes with OPM is someone saying 'the DP has her own rig and we're renting it from her as a part of her day rate' or 'we've got a deal through AGE for a package' or something similar.

The decision I came to, for myself, was the higher-quality SD. I'm gambling that a better-crafted image will trump more lines of raw resolution, but I recognize that it is a gamble. I also hedged my bet, to a certain extent, by going with the Canon, because the (at the time brand-new) HD version of their camera is the same physical size and shape. That means moving up to HD is just a matter of buying or renting the camera itself - all of the other gear I've invested in will still work just fine.
For what it's worth...

Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary
Steven

Usenet · Answer

I have a 5-year-old 3CCD standard def camera that cost me about $3k when I got it ...
And I would make the other choice today. High def looks a lot better most of the time.
If you have the hardware to handle post, in my opinion high-end consumer HD stuff beats semi-pro SD stuff most of the time. I'm not a gearhead, but that's my $.02.

Usenet · Answer

O hypothetical one,
Consider a RED camera ... it's the wave of the future. I see it mentioned more and more in Craig's List postings for crew wanted.
[nq:1]From Wikipedia:[/nq]
The Red Digital Cinema Camera Company manufactures digital cinematography cameras and accessories for professional and cinematic use.
Red Digital Cinema Camera Company was founded in 2005 by Jim Jannard, founder of the Oakley company. The company's main product is the Red One, capable of recording at resolutions up to 4096 horizontal by 2304 vertical pixels, directly to flash or hard disk based digital storage. It features a single Super 35-sized CMOS sensor and a cinematography industry standard PL mount.
The camera body is priced far below most comparable products, and as a result it may make high-resolution digital cinematography accessible to many more productions.(1) This aggressive pricing, and Red's approach of reaching out to potential customers through online forums? unusual in the traditionally very small digital cinematography market? have generated considerable industry attention.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Hypothetically, in today's market, if someone has $3000 to spend ... his money on some version of an HD camcorder? [/nq]
[nq:1]Tough call. I've seen a used-but-mint Canon XL-HD1 on eBay for about $5K; that would be my choice because I ... camera itself - all of the other gear I've invested in will still work just fine. For what it's worth...[/nq]
Of course this makes my inner, hypothetical camera buyer so unhappy. I really wanted a knowledgeable person to tell me that the perfect, no-compromises solution is the AG-DVX100C or D or E the High-Def version of my theoretically perfect SD camera which, as it happens, doesn't exists.
Actually, thank you Steven, you've verified what I already suspected. I'm toying with the idea of the new Sony HDR-FX1000, supposedly available in November. If the take on that isn't great, I'll end up going to a lower-end HD unit and then borrowing/renting when I need higher quality. The FX1000 looks like it has no XLR jacks for mics, but who knows (besides, if I need great audio, I'm probably back in better-rent-it territory). I'll wait for it to be available and then go talk to the camera geeks at B&H (who seem to hate Sony for some reasons...)
Also, thank you, Ron. Your advice helps cement the decision in place.

Alan Brooks

A with an Underwood
Shoot First, Inc.
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Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]It's a tough price-point, because it seems like the buyer has to make a decision between a very well-accessorized, near-professional SD camera or a somewhat bare-bones HD camera.[/nq]
I shoot in SD because I dont like dealing with HD on the laptop with ext. drives and everything, but most of my vanity stuff ends up on Youtube and its just sketch. What do you want to do with the camera? Do you need audio? How much battery will you need? Weller brings up some good points. I just did a series with Canon XL-HD1 and we all hated them because we want controls we know and can change without stopping shooting i.e. Daylight to Tungston and ND's and Filters. But thats run and gun, and wouldnt be an issue if you were shooting on a tripod in a studio or on set.
Lets assume that you know enough about photography to capture a sharp image and the exposure you want. Audio is another world. If your subject is gonna be standing 2 feet away from the lens and screaming into the camera mic like all my videos, then you are ok with on-board camera mic; however, if you want to capture dialog, you are gonna need microphones, and inputs and that eliminates the bare bones HD cameras. That walkman mic jack aint gonna cut it. That means you need XLR inputs.
More info needed.
Oranse

Usenet · Answer

Hi Alan - jaybee has been shooting his own shorts (not his briefs), so he'd be good to ask. He's bought and sold a few over the last year or so.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]It's a tough price-point, because it seems like the buyer ... well-accessorized, near-professional SD camera or a somewhat bare-bones HD camera.[/nq]
[nq:1]I shoot in SD because I dont like dealing with HD on the laptop with ext. drives and everything, but ... eliminates the bare bones HD cameras. That walkman mic jack aint gonna cut it. That means you need XLR inputs.[/nq]
Good points.
I'm not stupid: the gear I'd want for shooting a festival film would be better than I could buy, besides which I wouldn't use it enough so it would lie around collecting dust. So for that purpose I'd rent a kit.

What I want is something for what I do all the time which is shooting a local theater group's performances and on-set extras, and then producing a couple DVDs a year. I wouldn't mind doing those in HD, and I do all my editing on external drives anyway I just buy more when I need them so disk space is irrelevant. I'd like to be able to handle higher-quality sound, so XLR inputs would be good. A better than 10x zoom would be nice as well, for travel/documentary and the odd soccer game.

And then, seeing as I have scripts and I'm working with actors all the time, and have plenty of friends in sound and lighting... shooting a small film seems within reach. Having a camera that won't embarrass me would be great.

Size: it definitely has to be hand-holdable, but I'd rather carry a little more weight and have the features, then leave features at home and lose opportunity.
Anyway, I'll take this over the the rec.video groups, but I wanted to hear from you guys who I know & trust first. I'm definitely looking for a best-compromise camera: something I can do quick-and-dirty personal stuff with (carry it around the West Village during the Halloween Parade, or shoot the odd soccer game for post-game analysis) but also a camera that won't disappoint me when I'm in control of the light and I'm trying to keep highlights from blowing out.
Alan Brooks

A with an Underwood
picture this
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Usenet · Answer

I'm definitely looking
[nq:1]for a best-compromise camera: something I can do quick-and-dirty personal stuff with (carry it around the West Village during the ... that won't disappoint me when I'm in control of the light and I'm trying to keep highlights from blowing out.[/nq]
I'll be interested in any answers to this. I'm also camera-shopping, for something similar, though maybe cheaper.

Gadget freaks: camera decision.

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