Further past tense in past tense narrative?

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Hi All,I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to ask this question, as it's as much about creative writing as it is about actual english usage. However, I'm assuming there's a considerable overlap between the two (ie what would the one be without a knowledge of the other), so I hope the assembled will forgive me if this post is out of place.I'm wondering if there is an established creative writing / english usage rule or guideline that helps untangle creative writing situations where you are attempting to describe events that took place before the main past tense narrative?A simple example of what I mean would be something like:John's fingers encountered something unexpected when he reached into his coat pocket. He pulled it out and examined it as it lay in the palm of his hand. It was the locket Linda had given to him the final time they had met. "Don't lose this," she had said. "Promise me you won't?" "I won't," John had replied, and he had kept it with him ever since.While that's not the most inspired creative writing, it illustrates what I'm asking about the reliance on 'he had' and 'she had' to indicate that the events are further back than the main narrative, which is also in past tense. It feels cumbersome to me to do this, particularly if the 'further tense' (sorry, I don't know the right term for this, but would love to know what it is if there is one) narrative goes on for any length of time.Is there an alternative way of handling creative writing situations such as these? Or are 'further tense' narratives simply to be avoided, where possible?Any advice or thoughts would be much appreciated!All the best,MW

Usenet · Accepted Answer

M Wells wrote on 17 Mar 2005:
[nq:1]Hi All, I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to ask this question, as it's as much about ... way of handling creative writing situations such as these? Or are 'further tense' narratives simply to be avoided, where possible?[/nq]
You got two aspects of the past tense here: simple (eg, "encountered") and perfect (eg, "had said"). You've got the right grammatical idea about how to use these two tenses, but you can drop the perfective aspect in the dialog part above because it seems clear from the context that the speech occurred "the final time they had (or "they'd") met". It would seem to me that the final conversation is playing inside John's head. But just as you need the "they had met" before the dialog, it seems to me you'd also need "and he had (or "he'd") kept it with him ever since".
It's normal to take this kind of liberty in fiction, as long as it creates the effect you want.
[nq:1]Any advice or thoughts would be much appreciated![/nq]
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[nq:1]John's fingers encountered something unexpected when he reached into his coat pocket. He pulled it out and examined it as ... but would love to know what it is if there is one) narrative goes on for any length of time.[/nq]
I'd call the "had" tense a "pluperfect". I don't think it's so bad in the passage you quoted; it reminded me of Dubliners. But if you wanted to avoid it, well...
Lots of things you could do, no doubt. Two options that occur to me are:
1. Stay in the past.
2. Use the present tense.

Neither of these are without problems, and both might bring with them effects you don't want. So the pluperfect might be preferable after all...
1. Switching to past...

John's fingers encountered something unexpected when he reached into his coat pocket. He pulled it out and examined it as it lay in the palm of his hand. It was the locket Linda gave him the final time they met. "Don't lose this," she said. "Promise me you won't?" "I won't," John replied, and he kept it with him ever since.
I kept it with me from that time onwards.'"
One detail about this rewrite, incidentally, is that the "It was the locket" sentence aids in the transition to free indirect discourse, because it's not clear whether the narrator is already inside John's head, or whether the narrator is telling the audience something that John might or might not know.
2. Using present

Lots of different ways you could do this... Here's two.

John's fingers encounter something unexpected when they reach into his coat pocket. He pulls it out and examines it lying in his hand. It's the locket Linda gave him that final time they met. "Don't lose this," she said. "Promise me you won't?" "I won't," John replied, and he kept it with him ever since.
John's fingers encountered something unexpected when they reached into his coat pocket. He pulled it out and examined it as it lay in the palm of his hand. It was the locket Linda had given him the final time they met. "Don't lose this," she says. "Promise me you won't?" "I won't," John replies, and he had kept it with him ever since.
==
Regards,
VI
http://kenm.mydeardiary.com/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to ask this question, as it's as much about creative writing ... but would love to know what it is if there is one) narrative goes on for any length of time.[/nq]
For that short example, however, it is absolutely perfect. It is crystal clear that that exchange happened in the past, and it sounds fine.
[nq:1]Is there an alternative way of handling creative writing situations such as these? Or are 'further tense' narratives simply to be avoided, where possible?[/nq]
You're hoping for something like the TV/film wavy dissolve that signals "flashback starts" or "dream starts", aren't you?
I don't know of a single typographical convention to handle that in storytelling. Putting those sections completely in italics is fairly common. Starting bluntly with an intro like: "This is what he told to me:" and skipping a line, is an old-fashioned way.

I think you, as creative story teller, are free to come up with whatever you like that is clear enough for your purposes. You just have to give your reader just enough clues in the content to know when this section begins and when it ends. You can just skip a line (or two) and start into a new section, as long as the reader can grasp before long that you're talking about a different time and place, and maybe different characters.
Others may have better suggestions.

Best Donna Richoux

Further past tense in past tense narrative?

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