FCE or CAE?

Question

Hi,I've had six years of English at school (I live in Germany) but accourding to my teacher I did better than the pupils preparing for the "Abitur" (they had 9 years of English).After grade 10 I went to a vocational college and had another three years of English but the lessons were terrible - and - I didn't do much with the language that days. Actually I forgot more than I learnt. (yes, I regret it today...)[nq:1]From grade 7 (after having had two years of English) I started readingEnglish books, wrote English poems yada yada yada but in that three years I didn't do anything.[/nq]Now my love to the English language returned half a year ago - I started reading English books again (usually without a dictionary, but, of course I don't get every word), listen to BBC and CNN (usually understand what they are talking about - but the same thing here, I don't understand every word), have an American mailfriend to whom I talk sometimes over the internet...Now (I'm 20) I wanna attend a course at an adult education centre to prepare for a Cambridge exam but I'm not sure which one - FCE or CAE... On the one side it is said that for CAE you should have learnt English up to grade 12 (for 8 years) but indeed I only had English for that 6 years. Some even say you should have stayed abroad for a longer time (Unfornately I never had the chance). But on the other side I reached a much higher level than common in that 6 years at school and besides I'm a very quick learner. The course takes about one year with ~2hrs a week - I would propably take the exam in June 2006 then.Hm.. Really not sure what course to attend to now :-(Has anybody been in the same situation? What course did you attend then/what exam did you take and did you pass? Any expression of opinion is welcome...

Usenet · Accepted Answer

Hi, Silverblue,
I work in Greece and prepare students for Cambridge ESOL exams, among others.
It seems that you've made your mind up already, doesn't it?

Cambridge ESOL believes that you should have studied English for about 500-600 hours before you sit for an FCE examination. The guidelines for CAE are not as straightforward.
Here's how you check where you're at. You can download a Handbook for CAE at www.cambridgeesol.com. It contains specifications for all levels and samples of all five papers in it. The sample paper is, more or less, at the level of the real Advanced examination.

You will be able to do the Reading, Writing, and English in Use papers. The online Handbook does not, when I last checked, come with the taped version of the Listening test, but it does have the tapescript. You will, of course, not be able to do the Speaking test without a partner and at least a single examiner.
There is nothing stopping you from checking your skills on Reading and English in Use under mock examination conditions, however, since the Handbook also has the answers for those sample papers in it. If you score somewhere around sixty percent on those two, and don't feel that the Listening and Writing test would be a real problem (and judging from the writing sample that you've sent in, with real preparation your writing will be at CAE level), sign up for the CAE prep class.

There are a number of other ways to check your level of English. I'm surprised, for instance, that the institute that you have chosen to attend did not offer to give you a placement test when you walked through the door with these questions. That is not a good sign.

Make damned sure that your instructor knows what there is to know about CAE. High-stakes test-prep is very much a business, and often, the wrong kind of people get into it. The institute you choose and your instructor will be getting paid a good amount of money to prepare you for the examination, and a good test-prep instructor lives with three copies of the specifications of the test they are preparing students around: one in a bookshelf at home, one in a bookshelf at work, and one next to their bed. If the person standing up in the front of the room doesn't take the job seriously (and most don't), the class will not be worth your time or money.
You should be able to ascertain this in the first week. Pay attention to how the instructor answers questions about the specific form of the examinations. Read your specifications and ask a question based on a specific point. The best ones welcome such questions as an opportunity to show off their knowledge. The worst ones twist their faces in disgust and make excuses for not knowing, and then tell you that you shouldn't really be asking questions like this.
You will not be the strongest student in the class, of course. Do the work faithfully. Pay attention to the corrections your instructor makes to your compositions. Don't cheat yourself and make any kind of excuses for poor performance. Among weaker CAE candidates like you will be, there is a tendency to overestimate your capabilities in fits of bravado and then sink into despair whenever you realize that you can't put your money where your mouth is.
Finally, you have found your way to this newsgroup. It really is an extraordinary resource. There are about a dozen first-rate, committed language teachers hanging around here who can help you with your questions and problems.
Good luck!

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]You will be able to do the Reading, Writing, and English in Use papers. The online Handbook does not, when ... will, of course, not be able to do the Speaking test without a partner and at least a single examiner.[/nq]
As an oral examiner for the Cambridge exams I'd like to correct this last statement. There are no individual oral examinations for FCE, CAE or CPE. Candidates are examined in pairs (or if there is an uneven number of candidates, in a group of three) - NB there are also 2 examiners involved (the interlocutor, who speaks to the candidates and gives instructions, and the assessor, who observes and gives the grades accoerding to the specifications laid down). Partners for the exam are allocated by the examination centre, so it doesn't matter if the candidate is an individual or comes from a course with other candidates.

As regards level, a good intermediate level student should have no problem with the FCE. The candidate should be able to cope with ordinary everyday situations. However, for CAE candidates I would advise at least upper intermediate level. The candidate should be able to cope with more complex situations. CPE, on the other hand, requires a level of English comparable to that of a native speaker and I feel that some native speakers would have geat difficulty with this exam, if they were allowed to do it.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1][/nq]
[nq:2]You will be able to do the Reading, Writing, and ... test without a partner and at least a single examiner.[/nq]
[nq:1] As an oral examiner for the Cambridge exams I'd like to correct this ... some native speakers would have geat difficulty with this exam, if they were allowed to do it. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan[/nq]
As an unofficial Cambridge test-prep specialist here in Greece and a thorn of some small note in UCLES's side, I should have been far more explicit to my instructions to Silverblue. What I should have said was that it would be impossible to SIMULATE an oral test without at least one person acting as an examiner, namely, the interlocutor. Good call, Einde. Since the assessor does not speak, his presence in a simulated exam is unnecessary, but well, my info was quite confusing.

I'm curious about another point that you raised. Here in Greece, candidates have the (titular) right to choose to be examined with another candidate of their choosing, if that other candidate is assigned the same testing time and center. Since candidates from the same frontistirios (private language schools) are typically all given the same time slots and centers, indeed, sit in the same examination room on the day the other four papers are administered, this is never a problem. Does the same situation exist in Britain?

Lastly, I could talk about the CAE for days, and indeed, have been contractually forced to do so in teacher-training seminars, back when I had delusions of grandeur and didn't realize that my place was in front of students and not other teachers...working for my students instead of pushing books. Cambridge's official position is that the Advanced lies on a scale of difficulty exactly midway between FCE and CPE. UCLES, for a while, tried to push the CAE on us as a "bridging" examination between FCE and CPE, until some vehement objections were raised by some of us test-preppers. In your view, is this true?

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I'm curious about another point that you raised. Here in Greece, candidates have the (titular) right to choose to be ... the day the other four papers are administered, this is never a problem. Does the same situation exist in Britain?[/nq]
I don't examine in Britain, but in Germany. I believe that candidates can indicate that they would like to be examined with another candidate of their choosing and usually they will be paired with this person, but I believe they have no specific right to this.
I don't think there is any real advantage to this, other than perhaps an slight plus of being certain that you can understand the accent of teh other student. But if a students accent is such that others might have difficulty understanding him or her then I don't think that they will have much chance of passing the oral exam at either CAE or FCE.
[nq:1]Lastly, I could talk about the CAE for days, and indeed, have been contractually forced to do so in teacher-training ... FCE and CPE, until some vehement objections were raised by some of us test-preppers. In your view, is this true?[/nq]
I don't think CAE is midway between FCE and CPE. The leap from CAE and CPE is much greater thatn the leap from FCE to CAE. On the basis of my experience peparing people for exams I've come to the conclusion that a strong FCE student could probably just about pass the CAE with minimal preparation for the minor differences. I don't think that even a strong CAE student would be able to pass the CPE without a great deal of preparation. The level of English required for CPE is almost native language standard with a strong academic bias. In my opinion many native speakers wouldn't pass the CPE exam.
It is true that in some ways you could see CAE as a "bridging" exam between FCE and CPE, but even for those who might use English regularly in their work I think CAE level is probably quite adequate.On the other hand, if people want to study in an English-speaking country I think CPE would be a better preparation for coping with English in an academic environment. But then there are other exams which are aimed at this market, e.g. IELTS - but as an indicator of "global achievement" I'd say that CPE is the "market leader", so to speak.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Usenet · Answer

Thanks for your answers - where I want to attend the prep course there isn't a placement test, they offer advice to decide which course to attend but not more. Both adult education centres which are consideres don't btw. - but both have native speakers as instructors so they probably know what they are talking about (at least I hope so!).

I tried the test papers now and reached more than 60% in the "English in Use" paper as well as in the reading paper so I think I'll attend the CAE-prep course - if I notice that I won't pass the exam in half a year I still can take the FCE so... nothing to lose I think.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Thanks for your answers - where I want to attend the prep course there isn't a placement test, they offer ... won't pass the exam in half a year I still can take the FCE so... nothing to lose I think.[/nq]
Well, Silverblue, it may not all be as straightforward as you think: I remain convinced that the structure of the CAE needs to be significantly modified before it becomes fully integrated into the new structure of the Main Suite, so you'll find yourself challenged with tasks and developing skills for CAE that you will not need in FCE, and to a lesser extent, vice versa. Despite what Cambridge says about the level of English in these tests, it's not a simple matter of taking the test without preparing for them based on your own judgement of your ability in English. If you want to take the FCE, run through a couple of practice tests before you sit for that examination, at the very least. ESPECIALLY the Listening test.
Another point is that your faith in native speaker instructors might be misplaced: as one myself, I can cheerfully admit that I have made plenty of money from that preconception of language teaching and learning, but especially here in Greece, it's not always true that native speakers are better language teachers...or even know what they're doing. You may find a non-native instructor may not be able to force you to speaking fluency or may miss a few points when correcting a composition, but far too many native speakers of English in this business know next to nothing about formal grammar teaching or might see themselves as tourists working in the field before moving on to a better job in something closer to what they studied at university. Such clowns aren't all that easy to spot, either.
The fact that neither school you went to gave you an honest-to-*** placement test doesn't surprise me. It costs time and money to produce (photocopy) these tests and getting someone with brains and experience to properly correct them and comprehensibly explain the results (in the student's first language) is not cheap. There is also no guarantee that students will accept the results and take the "examiner's" advice.

The fact that NO placement test was available, however, is not a good sign at all. I don't care if you went to a binational center or a major place like a branch of International House. I suggest you take another walk around and see if you can find someone who will honestly assess you in all the four skills: reading, writing, listening, and speaking.

FCE or CAE?

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