Explain run/ran

Question

How can I explain to a 14 year old grandson that : I will have run (is correct)
I will have ran (is not correct)
I have tried explaining that : I now run (present tense) and I have run (past tense) are correct.
He is not getting it.
Help will be appreciated.
Zeph

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]How can I explain to a 14 year old grandson that : I will have run (is correct) I will ... (present tense) and I have run (past tense) are correct. He is not getting it. Help will be appreciated. Zeph[/nq]
Run is unusual in that its 3 principal parts are run, ran, run. The third is the same as the first. That's very rare.

I've heard that schools don't really teach grammar anymore. I don't know if that is true, or true of his schools, but I think you should start at the beginning, and use a regular verb first, like start, started, started. Or maybe better yet, if you can find a verb he knows with three principal parts that are all different. Like sing, sang, sung** or go, went, gone, or speak, spoke, spoken.

Is he willing to say "He has sang" and "He has went"? If not, he's confused because he thinks run's parts are run, run, run.
Start, started, started or a similar verb is still essential, because since the 2nd and 3rd parts are the same, it will show him how he got started not realizing that in "run" they are not the same.

If he had to return his English books, or none of them included grammar, there should be some cheap ones available, with all the tenses, persons, and numbers of a few sample verbs. And maybe you can find a list somewhere of say 100 verbs with their 3 principal parts.
People my age were given increasingly long lists of verbs, with their
3 principal parts, to memorize, more than one time when we were ingrades between 2 or 3 and 6. If they didn't do that for him, it's not surprising he got in some bad habits.
**Although just this morning I heard an educated man, a guest on C-Span say "It sprung from something." Apparently he had forgotten the word sprang, which is what was called for there. No one has forgotten "sang", have they (Is this correct, or an acceptable use? Forgetting about feminist reasons, "has he?" sounds too specific)

I didn't spend much time on the actual question. If you want more, please post again.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]How can I explain to a 14 year old grandson ... He is not getting it. Help will be appreciated. Zeph[/nq]
[nq:1]Run is unusual in that its 3 principal parts are run, ran, run. The third is the same as the ... forgotten "sang", have they (Is this correct, or an acceptable use? Forgetting about feminist reasons, "has he?" sounds too specific)[/nq]
It is more likely that the man learned "sprung" as the past tense of "spring," so that he would no more say "It sprang from something" than I would say "Let's take a look at the shedule."
"Sprung" is shown as a standard past tense of "spring" in the *Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary,* the AHD4, and the dictionary at www.infoplease.com . It is shown as a standard US past tense for "spring" in the *Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary,*
The online version of the Collins English Dictionary appears to treat "sprung" as a standard variant past tense of "spring" in British English. For "spring" it gives the inflection as
" verb (springs, springing, sprang, sprung) ;.
(sprung)"
In contrast, for "sing" it gives the inflection as simply
" verb (sings, singing, sang, sung)"
Compare this with the dictionary's treatment of "dive":
" verb (dives, diving, dived) U.S..
dove, dived)"
[nq:1]I didn't spend much time on the actual question. If you want more, please post again.[/nq]
It's my opinion that children should be taught not just about grammar, but about standard and nonstandard dialects (they should, for example, be taught that "ain't" is unquestionably grammatical in those dialects which use it, but that it's a nonstandard usage). They should also be taught about standard variants.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]How can I explain to a 14 year old grandson ... He is not getting it. Help will be appreciated. Zeph[/nq]
[nq:1]Run is unusual in that its 3 principal parts are run, ran, run. The third is the same as the ... with three principal parts that are all different. Like sing, sang, sung** or go, went, gone, or speak, spoke, spoken.[/nq]
It seems to me that this would simply reinforce the grandson's notion that the third principal part (3pp) of "run" ought to be "ran", given that "run" is the 1pp, "ran" is the 2pp; and the 1pp isn't the same as the 3pp in any of these examples, but the 2pp is frequently identical with the 3pp.
At least, if he approaches the thing logically, that's a very likely conclusion to be reached.
[nq:1]Is he willing to say "He has sang" and "He has went"? If not, he's confused because he thinks run's parts are run, run, run.[/nq]
But "sing" and "go" have different 1pp's and 3pp's. How does this have any bearing on the grandson's notion of run's pp's?
[nq:1]Start, started, started or a similar verb is still essential, because since the 2nd and 3rd parts are the same, ... 3 principal parts, to memorize, more than one time when we were in grades between 2 or 3 and 6.[/nq]
Right. "Run, ran, run" simply has to be memorized and accepted as an illogical deviation from the norm.
[nq:1]If they didn't do that for him, it's not surprising he got in some bad habits.[/nq]
Bad habits? It might be that he is simply approaching the thing very logically. I suppose that might be a bad habit in the real world, now that I think about it.

Usenet · Answer

"I have went" and "I have sang" are extremely common nowadays. "Sprung" as a past tense has been around longer. I'm finding these errors in print, in novels. Hardcovers! And not only in the dialog of characters who would be expected to speak in nonstandard dialects, either.
I think the confusion of verb parts began with "drink/drank/drunk"; "drunk" is an adjective, used of bums with paper bags holding cheap wine, right? It soon encompassed other i/a/u verbs (swim, ring, and so forth), and now it's getting to all of the irregular verbs.

And it hurts!
Regular verbs are being converted to irregulars, too. Learn, leap, lean all had perfectly good regular past and past perfect forms in America, but the last few years, they've all gone irregular. I hate it.
Cece

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]"I have went" and "I have sang" are extremely common nowadays. "Sprung" as a past tense has been around longer. ... novels. Hardcovers! And not only in the dialog of characters who would be expected to speak in nonstandard dialects, either.[/nq]
As I pointed out in another post to this thread, "sprung" as a past tense is a standard variant. I certainly wouldn't say that "I have went" and "I have sang" are extremely common.
[nq:1]I think the confusion of verb parts began with "drink/drank/drunk"; "drunk" is an adjective, used of bums with paper bags ... past and past perfect forms in America, but the last few years, they've all gone irregular. I hate it. Cece[/nq]
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

Thank you for your help. Yes, the 14 year old is trying to be logical - hence a heated attempt at telling him he was wrong with not much success in convincing him.
He will appreciate the "illogical deviation from the norm". You are right that grammar is no longer being taught, neither is spelling. I am using these replies to 'instruct' him. Dare I say" Thanx!
Cheers!
Zeph

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Run is unusual in that its 3 principal parts are ... sang, sung** or go, went, gone, or speak, spoke, spoken.[/nq]
[nq:1]It seems to me that this would simply reinforce the grandson's notion that the third principal part (3pp) of "run" ... isn't the same as the 3pp in any of these examples, but the 2pp is frequently identical with the 3pp.[/nq]
As I said, I would start at the beginning, the regular verbs that end in -ed in their 2pp and 3pp; and the verbs that have three forms. In all tenses and numbers and persons. Like he should have had in school. The ones that have three forms would show which form is used for the one he makes a mistake on. "I will have went" is no more correct than "I will have ran." I hope he will know that the first is wrong and therefore, once he learns the pp's of run, he'll know the second is wrong too. And just as he knows, I hope, that "I will have gone" is right, he will believe that "I will have run" is right.
[nq:1]At least, if he approaches the thing logically, that's a very likely conclusion to be reached.[/nq]
If he has incomplete information, yes. He's reasoning from an incomplete set of facts.
[nq:2]Is he willing to say "He has sang" and "He has went"? If not, he's confused because he thinks run's parts are run, run, run.[/nq]
[nq:1]But "sing" and "go" have different 1pp's and 3pp's. How does this have any bearing on the grandson's notion of run's pp's?[/nq]
One has to walk before he can run.

To teach him how other verbs work.
[nq:2]Start, started, started or a similar verb is still essential, ... we were in grades between 2 or 3 and 6.[/nq]
[nq:1]Right. "Run, ran, run" simply has to be memorized and accepted as an illogical deviation from the norm.[/nq]
Interestingly, we spent time on these lists every year I think, even though no one in the class ever used a verb incorrectly, afaicr. At least one of my classmates lived in a very small house, a bungalow, but we all spoke English correctly, even in the first grade afaicr. (Not that we knew that many words then, but I think the ones we knew we used properly.)This was a small city. 50,000. Only one high school and maybe 2 Junior Highs. I think there were only two grammar schools on the north side of town, and mine was the one farther north. Now my school is rented out to some private community center, but the old people in my n'hood, my parents age and younger but still over 80, are moving to retirement communities or dying. There homes will probably be bought by younger people who will have children, and the tenants will be kicked out and the school reopened.

Although the city's population is down to 35,000 now. It's possible people in their 40's to 60's from other parts of town will buy houses in my n'hood, if they can find someone to buy the houses they live in now. I bought the paper a couple years ago I should have looked at real estate ads.

My own house has had central air-conditioning added to it since we left (We had nothing.), and they fixed the garage doors. And the tree in the front yard was so big that it obscured both second floor windows. That was interesting because after my father died, some gardener told my mother she had to dig a ditch around the trunk of the oak tree, 15 inches deep and 15 across, so she had him do it. I don't know if it needed it, but it certainly didn't hurt. The tree was pretty big when she did it, and it looks great 45 years later. Other than that, the place was about the same, last I looked.
[nq:2]If they didn't do that for him, it's not surprising he got in some bad habits.[/nq]
[nq:1]Bad habits? It might be that he is simply approaching the thing very logically. I suppose that might be a bad habit in the real world, now that I think about it.[/nq]
Yeah, that's what I meant.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years

Explain run/ran

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