Exceptions in possessive case

Question

As it is known, in the possessive construction an article modifies the next noun

the boy's hat

However, there are some exceptions to this rule

A children's room
A doctor's degree
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1) Can you explain how we can figure it out with what case we are dealing at a specific case?
2) Could you give more examples alike with "A children's room"?

Thanks in advance.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

1-- I don't understand what you find different.
2-- What do you think 'children's room' means?

Ticce · Answer

Mister Micawber1-- I don't understand what you find different.2-- What do you think 'children's room' means?

The difference is quite obvious here

It is not about meaning but about the article and the noun

1) the boy's hat

Here, THE modifies - boy - and it doesn't modify HAT

the first noun is modified by an article

2) a children's room
Here, A modifies - room- and it doesn't modify CHILDREN'S

the second noun is modified by an article

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Usually only the first noun is modified and a children's room is an exception.

This is why I would like to know more stock phrases like a children's room (with the same pattern)
see this issue which wasn't disscussed

Mister Micawber · Answer

Ah, I see-- that's your problem, is it?

A boy's hat-- here, the article modifies 'boy'
A boy's hat-- here, the article modifies 'hat'.

Well, the answer is obvious, isn't it?

CalifJim · Answer

TicceI would like to know more stock phrases like a children's room (with the same pattern)

I don't think any of them could be considered "stock phrases". Anything with a and a plural possessive would fulfill your requirements, I would think.

an old people's home
a men's restroom
a women's club

That sort of thing.
________________

Ticce1) the boy's hat

Here, THE modifies - boy - and it doesn't modify HAT

This is ambiguous. This could be "the hat of the kind that boys wear" or "the hat of the/that boy".

Huddleston (Introduction to the Grammar of English, Cambridge University Press) presents a similar example: "a cat's tail", he says, could be "a tail of the kind that cats have" or "the tail of a cat". In the first interpretation he calls "cat's" a modifier; in the second, he calls "cat's" a determiner. He remarks, by the way, that "in practice it might not matter" how we take it.

It seems to me, in light of the discussion above, that in expressions like "a children's room", "children's" can only be unambiguously "a room of the kind that children use", namely a modifier and not a determiner -- and similarly for all those expressions I listed in the first part of this post.

CJ

AlpheccaStars · Answer

CalifJimIn the first interpretation he calls "cat's" a modifier; in the second, he calls "cat's" a determiner. He remarks, by the way, that "in practice it might not matter" how we take it.

Hi CJ:
When I was a kid, we used to carry a lucky rabbit's foot with us.

Remembering back, it actually was the foot of some poor unlucky rabbit, not an (imitation fur) foot of the kind that a rabbit might have! In this specific example, I feel that it matters....especially for the rabbit.

cheers,
A-

s

Ticce · Answer

Mister MicawberAh, I see-- that's your problem, is it? A boy's hat-- here, the article modifies 'boy'A boy's hat-- here, the article modifies 'hat'. Well, the answer is obvious, isn't it?

Well, thank you for your jab at me)))
If it was as you are saying then this variant would be possible

The John's car (where THE modifies CAR)

However, this is not so.

Ticce · Answer

CalifJim
Ticce1) the boy's hatHere, THE modifies - boy -
and it doesn't modify HAT
This is ambiguous. This could be "the hat of the kind that boys wear" or "the hat of
the/that boy".

Thank you Jim,
If it was ambiguous then we could have this variant

the John's car

I remember that you were telling that this is not right. The can't modify CAR here.
__________________________________
Thank you for

an old people's home
a men's restroom
a women's club

AlpheccaStars · Answer

Quibbling,

Ticcethe John's car

I remember that you were telling that this is not right. The can't modify CAR here.

Well, this is simply a poor choice of proper noun. The John's car (i.e. the car which belongs to the John) is possible.

The Jim's car - Now, that is not right.
Cheers,
A-s

Ticce · Answer

the car which belongs to the John

It is possible only if we have several Johns and want to point out a specific John which we refer to. However, if there is only one John then why would we put THE before the name?

If we have one John we are not to use THE with the name, at least, this is what I remember about the case.
________________
I didn't undersatnd you logic
You are saying

1) The John's car (i.e. the car which belongs to the John) is possible.

2) The Jim's car - Now, that is not right.

What's the difference between - The John's car/ The Jim's car

Ivanhr · Answer

Hi Ticce

From what you've presented so far it seems that "the" always modifies the possesive following it whereas "a" modifies the head noun.

It is also important to note that we're not dealing with true possesives in the versions containg "a".

a day's pay (the pay isn't owned by the day)

a children's room (a room for children, strictly speaking they don't own the room)

but

the boy's hat (the boy owns the hat)

John's car (John owns the car)

Exceptions in possessive case

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