Ex-adjective noun

Question

Does anybody else feel that usage wrong? The BBC has done it twice recently - today it says "Ex-Bosnian Serb leader", and some days ago there was the "Ex-French president". The meaning is clear, but I would much have preferred to see "French ex-president", or "Bosnian Serb ex-leader". They haven't stopped being French, or Bosnian, respectively. Is this common usage - should I try to squash my annoyance?

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Does anybody else feel that usage wrong? The BBC has done it twice recently - today it says "Ex-Bosnian Serb ... They haven't stopped being French, or Bosnian, respectively. Is this common usage - should I try to squash my annoyance?[/nq]
Is it, in a similar manner to "hopefully", German usage imported via the United States?
OTOH "Former French President" would not sound
so questionable.
IMHO of course.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Does anybody else feel that usage wrong? The BBC has done it twice recently - today it says "Ex-Bosnian Serb ... They haven't stopped being French, or Bosnian, respectively. Is this common usage - should I try to squash my annoyance?[/nq]
It is common usage by some BBC reporters. It is usually clear what is meant when the phrase is spoken. There tends to be a slight pause between "ex" and the main phrase with minimal pauses between the words of the main phrase. This indicates that the "ex" is applied to the whole of "Bosnian Serb leader" or "French president".
One way of writing the phrase to make it clear that "ex" refers to the whole phrase is to use hyphens instead of spaces: "ex-Bosnian-Serb-leader". This shows that "Bosnian-Serb-leader" is a sible unit being modified by "ex".
"semiretired" has suggested using "former" in place of "ex" to avoid confusion. This has the benefit that if we wish to indicate that the person has ceased to be French or Bosnian Serb we can say or write "formerly French" or "formerly Bosnian Serb".

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Does anybody else feel that usage wrong? The BBC has done it twice recently - today it says "Ex-Bosnian Serb ... They haven't stopped being French, or Bosnian, respectively. Is this common usage - should I try to squash my annoyance?[/nq]
Yes. It is common enough usage that you should tolerate it in others. If you have students or employees, or even children, for whose product you are responsible, you might train them in the way you wish them to speak or write.
That is, in the sense thay you are to be judged by the work of your inferiors and children, you have the authority to set certain performance standards.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]a sible unit[/nq]
a single unit

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Does anybody else feel that usage wrong? The BBC has done it twice recently - today it says "Ex-Bosnian Serb ... They haven't stopped being French, or Bosnian, respectively. Is this common usage - should I try to squash my annoyance?[/nq]
I'd go with the BBC, to allow the "ex" to apply to the complete phrase. Putting it after the adjective suggests that it applies to the noun only. For instance, I would interpret "German ex-student" as a German who used to be a student (rather than someone of unspecified
nationality who used to study German).
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]interpret "German ex-student" as a German who used to be a student (rather than someone of unspecified nationality who used to study German).[/nq]
But that's exactly how Patok's examples should be interpreted. "Ex-Bosnian Serb leader" isn't intended to mean someone of unspecified nationality who led Bosnian Serbs. It's intended to mean a Bosnian Serb who was formerly the leader, i.e., a Bosnian Serb ex-leader.

¬R Around here, the fun is always filled with blanks. http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/arkville.html Theresa Willis

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]interpret "German ex-student" as a German who used to be a student (rather than someone of unspecified nationality who used to study German).[/nq]
[nq:1]But that's exactly how Patok's examples should be interpreted. "Ex-Bosnian Serb leader" isn't intended to mean someone of unspecified nationality who led Bosnian Serbs. It's intended to mean a Bosnian Serb who was formerly the leader,[/nq]
No, no, no. That interpretation emphasises the wrong aspect in theory, an ex-Bosnian Serb leader could be of any race/nationality (Radovan Karadzic was born in Montenegro) and doesn't specify what or who he was a leader of. I tried to introduce an example that would avoid these types of ambiguity, but you reverted to the ambiguous one.
[nq:1]i.e., a Bosnian Serb ex-leader.[/nq]
Id non est. The position of the "ex" changes the
emphasis:
- a Bosnian Serb ex-leader is a Bosnian Serb who used to lead an unspecified something.
- Bill Gates is an American ex-president (of Microsoft), but is not (yet) an ex-American President.
- On the other hand, Lech Walesa was once just a Polish ex-leader (a Pole who was formerly the leader of
Solidarity). Now, he's also an ex-Polish leader (someone of unspecified nationality who was formerly the
President of Poland).
- Sven Goren Ericcson is a Swedish ex-manager (of the English football team) who has not yet been an ex- Swedish manager.
Kevin
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Usenet · Answer

Well, this highlights exactly the ambiguity and difference in perception. I /know/ that your interpretation exists, but it is by no means the initial/natural interpretation. When I read "ex-something another", the automatic and default understanding is that the ex- applies to the immediate successor word, /not/ to the phrase itself. It is different from spoken, where you can make the pause between ex- and the phrase longer than the pause inside the phrase.

When I read: ex-Polish leader, the /first/ thought is "When did he stop being Polish?". And yes, Bill Clinton /is/ an American ex-president (of the USA), and is /not/ ex-American (much to the Republicans' chagrin). But I accept that this (wrong IMO) usage is ubiquitous and will try to not get too annoyed when I meet it. I think (anybody confirm?) that part of the reason is that some people regard written word as a variant of the spoken word, and since "ex-something another" with the long ex- pause is perfectly understandable, they use it in writing too.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]aspect in theory, an ex-Bosnian Serb leader could be of any race/nationality (Radovan Karadzic was born in Montenegro)[/nq]
of Serbian parents. He was a Serb in Bosnia. If you think someone of another nationality could have led the Bosnian Serbs in theory, your theory has apparently never visited any very small country.
[nq:1]- a Bosnian Serb ex-leader is a Bosnian Serb who used to lead an unspecified something.[/nq]
If that were so, how would we ever know what "Bosnian Serb leader" meant? We have no trouble understanding that a Bosnian Serb leader of something specified in the context is a Bosnian Serb who leads that specified something, while a Bosnian Serb leader with no further qualification is a leader of Bosnian Serbs from among the Bosnian Serbs. Why would we suddenly stop understanding when we heard "ex-leader" used the same way?
Personally, I'd be happiest if the copy writers stopped trying to save the extra syllable and letters by using awkward constructions like this. The emphasized "ex-" takes the newscaster just as long to say as "former" anyway.
¬R

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1] of Serbian parents. He was a Serb in Bosnia. If you think someone of another nationality could have led the Bosnian Serbs in theory, your theory has apparently never visited any very small country.[/nq]
If an Englishman (John Stephenson, aka Sean Mac
Stiofain) could found and lead the Provisional IRA in Ireland, then a non-Serb leader of the Bosnian Serbs isn't all that far-fetched in practice, much less
theory.
[nq:1]meant? We have no trouble understanding that a Bosnian Serb leader of something specified in the context is a Bosnian ... while a Bosnian Serb leader with no further qualification is a leader of Bosnian Serbs from among the Bosnian Serbs.[/nq]
If there were such a rule, and everyone was aware of it, then it would work, but there isn't, and they aren't, so it doesn't.
[nq:1]Personally, I'd be happiest if the copy writers stopped trying to save the extra syllable and letters by using awkward constructions like this. The emphasized "ex-" takes the newscaster just as long to say as "former" anyway.[/nq]
Would you then advise them to write "former Bosnian Serb leader" or "Bosnian Serb former leader"?
Kevin
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Ex-adjective noun

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