Every man for themselves

Question

I know this is an old, much discussed subject. But the following quotation, taken from Time magazine Letters to the Editor (July 19, 2004 edition) sacrifices clarity for the sake of political correctness:

"A person's actions speak for themselves" (p. number blank, according to Time's usage of numbering only some of its pages).
The letter was about Clinton's book; I believe its author wanted to say that Clinton's actions are a reflection of Clinton's character, and did not intend to give actions a mind of their own.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I know this is an old, much discussed subject. But the following quotation, taken from Time magazine Letters to the ... Clinton's actions are a reflection of Clinton's character, and did not intend to give actions a mind of their own.[/nq]
Why do you believe that?
The phrase is usually something like "His actions speak for themselves", never "His actions speak for himself".
Matti

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I know this is an old, much discussed subject. But the following quotation, taken from Time magazine Letters to the ... Clinton's actions are a reflection of Clinton's character, and did not intend to give actions a mind of their own.[/nq]
Someone's actions (or other things) "speaking for themselves" is a long-established idiom meaning roughly "require no further elaboration". It has nothing to do with any notion of gender-neutral pronouns, but is indeed, metaphorically, giving them a voice of their own.
Looking at the Master Texts archives, I find
Among the art-treasures of Europe there are pictures which approach the Hair Trunk there are two which may be said to equal it, possibly but there is none that surpasses it. So perfect is the Hair Trunk that it moves even persons who ordinarily have no feeling for art. When an Erie baggagemaster saw it two years ago, he could hardly keep from checking it; and once when a customs inspector was brought into its presence, he gazed upon it in silent rapture for some moments, then slowly and unconsciously placed one hand behind him with the palm uppermost, and got out his chalk with the other. These facts speak for themselves.

Mark Twain, A Tramp Abroad
Mr. Bingley had soon made himself acquainted with all the principal people in the room; he was lively and unreserved, danced every dance, was angry that the ball closed so early, and talked of giving one himself at Netherfield. Such amiable qualities must speak for themselves.
Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
All this, and more, I have learned. The Ghost is considered the fastest schooner in both the San Francisco and Victoria fleets. In fact, she was once a private yacht, and was built for speed. Her lines and fittings though I know nothing about such things speak for themselves.
Jack London, The Sea Wolf

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >Bullwinkle: You sure that's the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 > only way?Palo Alto, CA 94304 >Rocky: Well, if you're going to be

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I know this is an old, much discussed subject. But the following quotation, taken from Time magazine Letters to the ... Clinton's actions are a reflection of Clinton's character, and did not intend to give actions a mind of their own.[/nq]
Someone's actions (or other things) "speaking for themselves" is a long-established idiom meaning roughly "require no further elaboration". It has nothing to do with any notion of gender-neutral pronouns, but is indeed, metaphorically, giving them a voice of their own.
Looking at the Master Texts archives, I find
Among the art-treasures of Europe there are pictures which approach the Hair Trunk there are two which may be said to equal it, possibly but there is none that surpasses it. So perfect is the Hair Trunk that it moves even persons who ordinarily have no feeling for art. When an Erie baggagemaster saw it two years ago, he could hardly keep from checking it; and once when a customs inspector was brought into its presence, he gazed upon it in silent rapture for some moments, then slowly and unconsciously placed one hand behind him with the palm uppermost, and got out his chalk with the other. These facts speak for themselves.

Mark Twain, A Tramp Abroad
Mr. Bingley had soon made himself acquainted with all the principal people in the room; he was lively and unreserved, danced every dance, was angry that the ball closed so early, and talked of giving one himself at Netherfield. Such amiable qualities must speak for themselves.
Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
All this, and more, I have learned. The Ghost is considered the fastest schooner in both the San Francisco and Victoria fleets. In fact, she was once a private yacht, and was built for speed. Her lines and fittings though I know nothing about such things speak for themselves.
Jack London, The Sea Wolf

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >Bullwinkle: You sure that's the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 > only way?Palo Alto, CA 94304 >Rocky: Well, if you're going to be

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I know this is an old, much discussed subject. But the following quotation, taken from Time magazine Letters to the ... Clinton's actions are a reflection of Clinton's character, and did not intend to give actions a mind of their own.[/nq]
I haven't seen this particular example of its use, but I've always taken the idiom to mean precisely that the referrant of "themselves" being "actions". (The meaning of the actions needs no additional explanation or elaboration: they speak for themselves.)

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I know this is an old, much discussed subject. But ... not intend to give actions a mind of their own.[/nq]
[nq:1]Why do you believe that?[/nq]
Because of the context:
"Good men do not have to explain themselves, just as good Presidents do not have to write books to shape their legacy or justify their deeds. A person's actions speak for themselves."
[nq:1]The phrase is usually something like "His actions speak for themselves", never "His actions speak for himself".[/nq]
Ooops, my bad. I didn't know this idiom.
If it weren't for the idiom, in the given context my reasoning made some sense, didn't it?

Usenet · Answer

I believe you, without having to look up the archives, but thank you anyway.
[nq:1]Among the art-treasures of Europe there are pictures which These facts speak for themselves.[/nq]
There is also a Latin expression "Res ipsa loquitur", which I should've remembered before I started this unfortunate thread.

Usenet · Answer

Right, "res ipsa loquitur".
Thank you for the lesson and TIA to anyone who may post to this thread. Sometimes we learn the hard way.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]"Good men do not have to explain themselves, just as good Presidents do not have to write books to shape their legacy or justify their deeds. A person's actions speak for themselves."[/nq]
This is exactly the common sense. A good president's deeds need nobody to speak for them (justify them). They speak for themselves, their justification being obvious to all observers.

(snip)
[nq:1]If it weren't for the idiom, in the given context my reasoning made some sense, didn't it?[/nq]
I can see how you got there, but the reflexive ("themselves") makes it impossible. It would have to be "a person's actions speak for him/ them".

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >You cannot solve problems with the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >same type of thinking that createdPalo Alto, CA 94304 >them.

(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]On 14 Jul 2004, Arcadian Rises wrote[/nq]
[nq:2]I know this is an old, much discussed subject. But ... not intend to give actions a mind of their own.[/nq]
[nq:1]I haven't seen this particular example of its use, but I've always taken the idiom to mean precisely that the referrant of "themselves" being "actions". (The meaning of the actions needs no additional explanation or elaboration: they speak for themselves.)[/nq]
Right. It has never occurred to me to interpret it any other way.
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia

Every man for themselves

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