Ergative verbs

Question

Hi all,I still have difficulties recognizing ergative verbs!(Probably I'm correct because even the system considers it a wrong word!)I asked a question on the matter some times ago an CJ gave me a good link of a seemingly complete list of those verbs. It was this. But my question, today, is about the verb bother. I saw it in dictionaries used in both forms (transitive and intransitive) and its meaning in my language, Kurdish, is like an ergative verb as well. But when I wanted to be sure I went on that site and sought it. No outcome! So I had to ask here.My question now, is that how to recognize if some verb is or is not ergative, especially when it's also not on that list?Is asking someone (or here) the only way, or there is some means through which I will be able to know them?Thanks.

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

KhoshtipManI still have difficulties recognizing ergative verbs!

That's not surprising. You almost have to be a native speaker to recognize them, and even then, it's not always easy.

KhoshtipManBut my question, today, is about the verb bother. I saw it in dictionaries used in both forms (transitive and intransitive)

Only the transitive form is of any interest in finding out if it's ergative. An intransitive use is not necessarily ergative.

KhoshtipManits meaning in my language, Kurdish, is like an ergative verb as well.

Not in English.

KhoshtipManhow to recognize if some verb is or is not ergative, especially when it's also not on that list?

It's virtually impossible unless you are a native speaker. A native speaker can call up examples at the snap of a finger and mentally test whether the examples sound grammatical or not when used with the relevant meaning.
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As a native speaker, I know instinctively that I can say "Tom bothered Jack", and that "Jack bothered" has nowhere near the same meaning, so 'bother' is not ergative. (In contrast, I know I can say "Tom broke the vase" and "The vase broke", and I know that both describe just about the same thing, so 'break' is ergative.) I know these things because I acquired English as a child, and because of that I now have an instinct for knowing which sentences are 'grammatical' and which ones are 'not grammatical'.
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Not being a native speaker requires looking in lists or in dictionaries, and that, as you have seen, does not always yield results. The next best thing you might be able to do is to check for the ergative use of the verb you're focusing on in a corpus of texts such as fraze.it or COCA or maybe even just Google. Then examine the context around each sentence you find to see if there are any ergative uses of your verb in the list, always discounting any non-ergative intransitive uses described in dictionaries.
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Not an appealing prospect, I'm afraid.
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CJ

KhoshtipMan · Answer

Thanks for your explanations. Your opinions helped me. I got the matter to some good extent and I will use that site frequently in future. Thanks.

Please have a look at these sentences from that site on bother:
Don't bother with escape attempts.
I'm not sure I'd bother buying the book.
Did Dan Morain bother checking with anyone other than Pellissier?

In sentences like above, doesn't bother sound like ergative?

Being a native speaker will not be accessible through immigration until at least next four years!

A side question:
"in the list" or "on the list"?

CalifJim · Answer

KhoshtipManDon't bother with escape attempts.I'm not sure I'd bother buying the book. Did Dan Morain bother checking with anyone other than Pellissier? In sentences like above, doesn't bother sound like ergative?

No, because the subject is not affected.
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If I bother to buy a book (or bother buying a book — It's the same thing), then I take the trouble to do it, I make an effort to do it. That's not like "The vase broke", where the vase ends up in a broken condition after this happens. And it's not like "The door of the lift opened", where the door is open after this happens.
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For the case of "bother", the meaning differs depending how you use it. If you are bothered, someone or something is causing you to be annoyed. But if you bother to do something, you make the effort to do it. Maybe this is what is confusing you (or bothering you).
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CJ

CalifJim · Answer

KhoshtipManA side question:"in the list" or "on the list"?

It's 'on the list' unless another word before 'list' governs the preposition 'in'.

His name is on the list.
Is this item included in the list?
They were not interested in the list.
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CJ

KhoshtipMan · Answer

CalifJimIf I bother to buy a book (or bother buying a book — It's the same thing), then I don't take the trouble to do it, I don't make any effort to do it.

CalifJimBut if you bother to do something, you make the effort to do it.

These two parts seem self contradictory.
But tell me please, what thing or who is affected by bother in I mentioned? Who is bothered? If no one so why this word is used? There should be some target for the effect of the word IMO.

And about list, it seems you should have written on here: if there are any ergative uses of your verb in the list,

CalifJim · Answer

KhoshtipManThese two parts seem self contradictory.

Yes, I confused two different examples, and I accidentally put "don't" where I should not have. I have now corrected the post.

KhoshtipManBut tell me please, what thing or who is affected by bother in I mentioned?

Affected by bother in I mentioned? What does that mean?
You mentioned a lot of different sentences. Can you write out the sentence you're talking about?

KhoshtipManAnd about list, it seems you should have written on here: if there are any ergative uses of your verb in the list,

I looked this up on Google Ngrams, and it seems that "in the list" and "on the list" are in free variation. On average there are about the same number of uses of each. This is a minor point you need not worry much about (except, as I mentioned, when something that precedes 'the list' requires a different preposition).
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CJ

KhoshtipMan · Answer

CalifJimAffected by bother in I mentioned? What does that mean?

Ow ***, I made a mistake too. I meant "affected by bother in sentences I mentioned?" I also had italiced bother but I don't know why the system shows it this way.

The sentences I said:
Don't bother with escape attempts.
I'm not sure I'd bother buying the book.
Did Dan Morain bother checking with anyone other than Pellissier?

CalifJimI looked this up on Google Ngrams, and it seems that "in the list" and "on the list" are in free variation. On average there are about the same number of uses of each. This is a minor point you need not worry much about (except, as I mentioned, when something that precedes 'the list' requires a different preposition).

Oh ***, that English will kill me some day.
So I always can use in.
AS, too, about a month ago said that "in the list" is not correct.
So the conclusion is that both are correct and fine to use.

But one point CJ, Google may have also included sentences with in governed by some preceding word like your sentences!

CalifJim · Answer

KhoshtipMan-
Don't bother with escape attempts.
I'm not sure I'd bother buying the book.
Did Dan Morain bother checking with anyone other than Pellissier?

... what thing or who is affected by bother in sentences I mentioned? Who is bothered?
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Nobody is bothered. That is, nobody is annoyed. Nobody is disturbed. So nobody is affected.
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The escape attempts are not annoyed/bothered. That makes no sense.
The book is not annoyed/bothered. That makes no sense.
Pellissier is not bothered, even though someone bothered to check with him.
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When you say "bother to (do something)" or "bother (do)ing (something)", you are not using the word "bother" in the same way as you use it when you say "bother (someone)".
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I don't want to bother to sweep the floor just now. ~ I don't want to take the trouble to sweep the floor just now. [Nobody is affected.]

I don't want to bother the boss with this problem. ~ I don't want to disturb the boss with this problem. [The boss is affected (or rather, may be affected).]
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Another usage features 'bothered' in a passive construction. In this pattern "bothered" is sometimes heard more as an adjective.
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Joseph was bothered by the cancellation of his credit card.
I am bothered when there is too much noise around me.
These three children have been bothered by bullies at school.

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In the sentences immediately above, the subject is affected, but there is no corresponding ergative construction (*Joseph bothered by the cancellation ...; *I bothered when there is ...) with the same meaning.
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Note also that in the first usage above, 'bother' is almost never used affirmatively. It's almost always in the negative or in a question.
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In summary, Tom broke the vase implies The vase broke. But Tom bothered Sally does not imply *Sally bothered. That's why 'break' is ergative and 'bother' is not.

Tom

CJ

KhoshtipMan · Answer

CalifJimI don't want to bother to sweep the floor just now. ~ I don't want to take the trouble to sweep the floor just now. [Nobody is affected.]

What if we say, "She may bother to sweep the room just now"?

By the way, the sentences you marked as they made no sense were brought from Fraze.it.

CalifJimis no corresponding ergative construction (*Joseph bothered by the cancellation ...; *I bothered when there is ...) with the same meaning.

If these don't have the same meaning, OK, what is the meaning of them? For example, "Joseph bothered by the cancellation".

CalifJimTom bothered Sally does not imply *Sally bothered.

Again, what does "Sally bothered" mean exactly?

CalifJim · Answer

KhoshtipManWhat if we say, "She may bother to sweep the room just now"?

This is only borderline acceptable. As I mentioned earlier, this usage of 'bother' (bother to do), is almost always negative or interrogative, so you are much more likely to see "She may not bother to sweep the room just now".

KhoshtipManBy the way, the sentences you marked as they made no sense were brought from Fraze.it.

You misunderstood my comments. The original sentences were fine. You asked what was affected in those sentences. Take the first one as an example. (Don't bother with escape attempts.) I wrote:
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The escape attempts are not annoyed/bothered. That makes no sense.
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What I wrote can be restated thus: It makes no sense to say that the original sentence claims that escape attempts were annoyed or bothered. So the escape attempts are not affected. Nothing in the original sentence is affected.

KhoshtipManIf these don't have the same meaning, OK, what is the meaning of them? For example, "Joseph bothered by the cancellation".

*Joseph bothered by the cancellation. Note the asterisk at the beginning. This is a universally recognized mark in linguistics that a sentence is ungrammatical. Ungrammatical sentences have no meaning.

KhoshtipManAgain, what does "Sally bothered" mean exactly?

Again, note the "ungrammatical" marker (the initial asterisk) that I put on that. There's no meaning. It's ungrammatical.
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CJ

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