English Language Teacher Qualifications

Question

I'm about to stick my neck out by writing an article, and I could use some advice.
Here in Greece, the only real English language teaching qualification especially recognized by the government is a national university degree in English Language and Literature. Certificate, Diploma, MA in TESOL, PhD in Applied Linguistics, all that's well and good, but if you want to get employed and move up in the public sector, you had better be a graduate of one of the two national university English programs. A course in teaching methodology was introduced in these English degree programs only in 1999.
To be certified as a language teacher eligible for legal employment in the private sector, you need, as a bare minimum, to have Greek citizenship, a Greek secondary school diploma and to have passed one of two Proficiency examinations, Cambridge CPE or Michigan ECPE. No methodology training whatsoever is currently required.

The debate's basic form is simply this: do high-school graduates with Proficiency certificates or English university graduates make better teachers over the long haul? And on a related note, should university graduates waiting to be appointed to their permanent positions in the public sector (a process that takes years) earn higher salaries doing the same entry-level jobs in private language schools as Proficiency-holders?
Professionally, I am completely outside of this debate as I do not work in any public or private institute, nor plan to ever seek a job in one in my time here. To be as vague as possible (because you never know where those confounded revenoo-ers might be lurking), I'm a freelance ELT...consultant.
If you have an English language problem,
and no one else can help,
and if you can find him,
maybe you can hire...CREDOQUAABSURDUM (cue "rat-tat-tat" on the blackboard).
Do any of you work in places where remotely similar conditions exist? Even if you don't, what would be your take on this debate? If you would like more specific information before advancing any opinion, I have oodles.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I'm about to stick my neck out by writing an article, and I could use some advice. Here in Greece, ... up in the public sector, you had better be a graduate of one of the two national university English programs.[/nq]
Sounds like a union thing.
[nq:1]A course in teaching methodology was introduced in these English degree programs only in 1999. To be certified as a ... to have passed one of two Proficiency examinations, Cambridge CPE or Michigan ECPE. No methodology training whatsoever is currently required.[/nq]
EU citizenship, surely - or are they being shifty about that as well? Never let a Greek horse in the house, I say.

Adrian Smith

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]EU citizenship, surely - or are they being shifty about that as well? Never let a Greek horse in the house, I say.[/nq]
Dodgy as the day is long.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]EU citizenship, surely - or are they being shifty about that as well? Never let a Greek horse in the house, I say.[/nq]
[nq:1]Dodgy as the day is long.[/nq]
Still, at least they invented democracy.

Adrian Smith

Usenet · Answer

On 28 Jun 2005 18:55:55 -0700, "credoquaabsurdum"
[nq:1]I'm about to stick my neck out by writing an article, and I could use some advice. Here in Greece, ... to have passed one of two Proficiency examinations, Cambridge CPE or Michigan ECPE. No methodology training whatsoever is currently required.[/nq]
Que? Does this mean the thousands of foreign recent CELTA graduates working in frontesterions are working illegally? (Actually this wouldn't surprise me in the least). Or are the rules different for native speakers?
I worked in one such (frontestrions are private institutes, and very thick on the ground in Greece) 20 years ago. My memory was that for legal employment as a teacher you had to have a Bachelors Degree, and that was it. As you say, no pedagogic training was legally required. I do recall that working in the public sector was considered practically impossible.
I'm thinking another year back in Greece would be great, and I've been putting a few feelers out to Unis there, so I'd be interested to see how your debate goes.
[nq:1]The debate's basic form is simply this: do high-school graduates with Proficiency certificates or English university graduates make better teachers ... sector (a process that takes years) earn higher salaries doing the same entry-level jobs in private language schools as Proficiency-holders?[/nq]
We're definitely talking just about Greek native-speaking nationals aren't we? Apart from anything else, it's struck me often that a great number of native English speakers would be hard pushed to pass Proficiency (& I possibly include myself there - I've thought in the past of entering to see how I'd get on. Prof remains a weird exam for the reason that it tests a level of lanugage which *is* beyond many native speakers - just what is it supposed to prove?)
[nq:1]Professionally, I am completely outside of this debate as I do not work in any public or private institute, nor ... be as vague as possible (because you never know where those confounded revenoo-ers might be lurking), I'm a freelance ELT...consultant.[/nq]
Nudge nudge, say no more. I did a bit of that too.
[nq:1]If you have an English language problem, and no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire...CREDOQUAABSURDUM (cue "rat-tat-tat" on the blackboard). Do any of you work in places where remotely similar conditions exist?[/nq]
The University of ***. No, joking, not really.

Deeply as I love it, Greece has always struck me as the sort of place where if people actually started obeying the rules one day, society would grind to a halt.
DC

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Que? Does this mean the thousands of foreign recent CELTA graduates working in frontesterions are working illegally? (Actually this wouldn't ... say, no pedagogic training was legally required. I do recall that working in the public sector was considered practically impossible.[/nq]
Hello, DJ Cat. I'm afraid I was none to clear in my original post, so here goes with some more information.
There are three roads to earning Greek government certification, which you may remember is called "eparkia" (or official certification) followed by earning an "adia" (license (which is rubber-stamped after a cursory medical examination)).
Foreign nationals must, indeed, have a Bachelor's. The eparkia process goes a lot faster if your degree is in something like English or general ducation, rather than, say, sociology or chemical engineering, but as long as the degree is from an institution where English is the language of instruction, you're fine. Granted, the process servers that run the system might check you out just a bit more thoroughly and/or blacklist your application if you went to the American University of Dubai rather than a university located in one of the BANA countries (Britain, North America, Australia), but you're still entitled to eparkia.
Having a CELTA (or any official language teaching ceritication) but no such BA/BSc is absolutely worthless. Your conclusion that these individuals are involved in the terrible, awful pitch-black market that constitutes 20% of the real Greek economy is correct. It is a sad state of affairs, but then again, there are all kinds of language teachers with all kinds of qualifications cheerfully making their money on the q.t.
A Greek citizen requires a Greek high school diploma and a Proficiency certificate.
I'm not too sure what the rules are for UK citizens. I don't think any EU citizen NEEDS a BA/BSc, but I've never met a UK citizen here working in the field who just doesn't have a BA. There's also a Greek language test involved for those who don't have a high school diploma, pitched around PET level.
The language requirement, from what I understand, is a formality. If you can show any kind of proof that you know basic Greek, you're as good as gold.
The last road is the strangest. From what I understand, a frontistirio can SPONSOR foreign nationals for an eparkia, following some kind of formula where you can't have more foreigners under such sponsorship working for you than Greeks. I believe that those foreign nationals MUST have a BA, but I'm not sure. School owners are pretty tight-lipped about that, as knowing things like that might give their employees real bargaining power when it comes time to talking about the dinero issue.
For all the above routes, no methodogical training is required. That bids fair to change, but we don't know yet.
I was lucky. As a dual US/Greek citizen with a BA in English Language and Literature and the first certification course off the Nottingham MA in Applied Linguistics-ELT, my application sailed right through. My knowledge of Greek was taken as a given, thanks to my being a Greek citizen and also having completed fifty hours of a free *** Greek language course my municipality held. My Dad worked hard on schmoozing the functionaries working at the Minsitry of Education, so I don't know if waiving the languag requirement is automatic, but I think no one cares much if you have Greek citizenship.
There were, strangely enough, no bribes involved. I, of course, didn't know that, so to hedge my bets, I also took the Proficiency.
[nq:1]I'm thinking another year back in Greece would be great, and I've been putting a few feelers out to Unis there, so I'd be interested to see how your debate goes.[/nq]
Good luck in your job search, but...last year, I turned down what many of my colleagues considered a plum appointment to the University of Piraeus because I crunched some numbers and saw that I would make a lot more working the privates game. Then again, if you're thinking long-term, you do need a home outside of the shifty world of the private language schools and the illiterate thieves that generally run them.
If you don't speak Greek fluently and can't "pass," the privates game can be iffy. On the other hand, if you have the goods necessary to communicate in Greek, prepare students for the exams in an effective manner, and, above all, you think of yourself as a BIDniz-man rather than a member of academia attached to an institution, you'll never go hungry in Greece.
[nq:1]Apart from anything else, it's struck me often that a great number of native English speakers would be hard pushed ... it tests a level of lanugage which *is* beyond many native speakers - just what is it supposed to prove?)[/nq]
Now, lookie here, lak' I done said, I took that thar' Proficiency (the Cambridge one) and while it changed a bit in December 2002, I remain confident that any Australian, American or Brit who has finished secondary school and who goes through a little bit of training on how to beat the different sections (which now have a pretty strange form to the uninitiated) can easily score an A on it. I walked in there cold and did it before the December 2002 change, but I've shown other high school grads how to get an A after the change. Granted, the Syndicate keeps on toughening it up, but if a native speaker knows what the test is testing and what the examiners want, it's a cakewalk.

There are five parts: Reading, Writing, Use of English (grammar exercises and a summary), Listening, and Speaking. I finished Reading in twenty minutes, U of E in twenty-five, wrote 2 600 word comps for Writing and still finished first in the room, and breezed throgh Listening. My examiner threw me out of the Speaking test. I don't think those statistics are all that unusual among native-speaker CPE candidates, and I maintain that for any educated native speaker (one who grew up in a BANA country and finished secondary education without requiring any special help in English), the Proficiency is a joke.

Granted, I have also met a fourteen-year-old Greek-Australian immigrant who got a B, and, in one extraordinary case, a Greek-American "back-and-forther" with a Psychology degree (and an overdeveloped interest in basketball) who got the same grade, but from everything else I've seen, a native speaker with any sort of interest in her/his language can simply shred the test and walk away.
As test-preppers, many of us often skew our perceptions of our own language skills downward in an honest attempt to take down the real walls of linguistic ability that stand between us and our students. Many of my kids here take that the wrong way, though, and they smugly think that they can equate their skills to those of their teacher's if they pass. There's nothing worse than a smug Greek.
[nq:1]Deeply as I love it, Greece has always struck me as the sort of place where if people actually started obeying the rules one day, society would grind to a halt.[/nq]
There ain't all that much chance of that happening. Life is seen as a game of skill and chance here, and if you're not cheating, you're not really trying.

Usenet · Answer

On 2 Jul 2005 16:32:24 -0700, "credoquaabsurdum"

Hi Credo
[nq:1]There are three roads to earning Greek government certification, which you may remember is called "eparkia" (or official certification) followed by earning an "adia" (license (which is rubber-stamped after a cursory medical examination)).[/nq]
Rings a bell - but I wasn't asked to have to a medical way back then...
[nq:1]Foreign nationals must, indeed, have a Bachelor's. The eparkia process goes a lot faster if your degree is in something ... again, there are all kinds of language teachers with all kinds of qualifications cheerfully making their money on the q.t.[/nq]
Oh, in fact no, I wasn't saying that, just that, as you say the Greek government were only interested in the degree. When I got my CELTA in
1982 (then called RSA Cert TEFLA) you wern't allowed on the coursewithout having a degree anyway; I think things have now changed.
[nq:1]A Greek citizen requires a Greek high school diploma and a Proficiency certificate. I'm not too sure what the rules ... a formality. If you can show any kind of proof that you know basic Greek, you're as good as gold.[/nq]
There wasn't a Greek language requirement then either. However, I say all this, but my employer had 'sorted' all this stuff before I arrived - although I had to send my BA certificate to Greece before I arrived, for all I know she registered me for a language course and put me through a medical too...
[nq:1]The last road is the strangest. From what I understand, a frontistirio can SPONSOR foreign nationals for an eparkia, following ... things like that might give their employees real bargaining power when it comes time to talking about the dinero issue.[/nq]
Yes. A lot of stuff clicks into place now. Including why my then girlfriend (now Mrs Cat) had an employment status at the frontesterio that was never fully explained, but involved payment via envelopes full of drachmai...
[nq:1]For all the above routes, no methodogical training is required. That bids fair to change, but we don't know yet. ... enough, no bribes involved. I, of course, didn't know that, so to hedge my bets, I also took the Proficiency.[/nq]
[nq:2]I'm thinking another year back in Greece would be great, ... so I'd be interested to see how your debate goes.[/nq]
[nq:1]Good luck in your job search, but...last year, I turned down what many of my colleagues considered a plum appointment ... a home outside of the shifty world of the private language schools and the illiterate thieves that generally run them.[/nq]
Don't get me started on Strategakis...
Well, a Uni post would be nice, but then I don't especially want to live in one of the cities.
We made a comfortable living from private students, but it's a question of getting the foot in the door, and having a job set up first seems a sensible idea. If that means private sector, with eyes open, its a possibility. My theory is as long as the money comes at the end of the week, and if it doesn't, they don't have a teacher on Monday.
[nq:1]If you don't speak Greek fluently and can't "pass," the privates game can be iffy. On the other hand, if ... yourself as a BIDniz-man rather than a member of academia attached to an institution, you'll never go hungry in Greece.[/nq]
Mmm, sounds interesting. My Greek is basic, but it's there, and open to improvement. I haven't spent the last five years hacking through the Trinity Dip followed by an MEd in ELT without developing ideas on language learning that can be turned inwards, as I found when I spent six months in Italy a couple of years back and started learning Italian from scratch (mind you, Italian is a walkover compared with Greek).
[nq:2]Apart from anything else, it's struck me often that a ... native speakers - just what is it supposed to prove?)[/nq]
[nq:1]Now, lookie here, lak' I done said, I took that thar' Proficiency (the Cambridge one) and while it changed a ... seen, a native speaker with any sort of interest in her/his language can simply shred the test and walk away.[/nq]
In fact the early 80s back in Athens was when I last taught Proficiency - it's fallen from favour with the inexorable rise of IELTS, and may have been revised over the years.
[nq:2]Deeply as I love it, Greece has always struck me ... the rules one day, society would grind to a halt.[/nq]
[nq:1]There ain't all that much chance of that happening. Life is seen as a game of skill and chance here, and if you're not cheating, you're not really trying.[/nq]
Well, badly as this story reflects on me, it illustrates exactly that idea...
Around about the time 911 happened I was talking to a guy in Nea Faliron in Pireaus about working in his school with an eye to eventually buying him out. I'd sent him a copy of my CV/resume, and like many people, as time goes by, well, insignificant jobs get merged, time gets a bit fluid... basically I'd said I'd worked at the frontesterio 19 years previously in 1982 for longer than I had. Extrordinarily (given the place had closed, sometime prior to 1993 when we had a holiday and looked for it) he managed to find the owner and found that we'd been there only one year, not two as my CV claimed.
But rather than saying 'never darken my door', the guy seemed rather impressed by this; it was almost like "you're not stupid, and you don't always show your cards - we can do business".

Cheers
DC

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]When I got my CELTA in 1982 (then called RSA Cert TEFLA) you wern't allowed on the course without having a degree anyway; I think things have now changed.[/nq]
Al lot of things went by the wayside when they stopped calling them RSA certificates and diplomas. I actually think that a full DELTA now requires no university degree. I may be wrong on that one, though,
[nq:2]The last road is the strangest. From what I understand, ... when it comes time to talking about the dinero issue.[/nq]
[nq:1]Yes. A lot of stuff clicks into place now. Including why my then girlfriend (now Mrs Cat) had an employment status at the frontesterio that was never fully explained, but involved payment via envelopes full of drachmai...[/nq]
Ah, the beloved "fakelaki." One of my colleagues once had a private in a rich section of town who insisted on paying him before each lesson with an envelope on a tray, proudly offered by the butler. For my colleague, the rush was all in the presentation. He still salivates thinking about that tray.
The money in them HAS changed to euros, unfortunately. Ah, for that thick, meaty smell of those well-used 10,000 drachma notes...packing out the slightly-smudged white envelopes with real presence; yes, those were really the days, when you had to spend it quick, knowing that tomorrow it might be worth half as much! ('Scuse me, let me just get out the ole hanky 'n wipe my mouth here.)
[nq:2]Good luck in your job search, but...last year, I turned ... language schools and the illiterate thieves that generally run them.[/nq]
[nq:1]Don't get me started on Strategakis...[/nq]
Strategakis is still alive and kicking, expanding, in point of fact. He's actually diversified into the CALL market, with Greek-English learning software.
[nq:1]Well, a Uni post would be nice, but then I don't especially want to live in one of the cities.[/nq]
What's not to love? The stench? The grift? People packed seven to a room and blaring their banjo music at full blast every day and twice on Sunday?
[nq:1]We made a comfortable living from private students, but it's a question of getting the foot in the door, and ... the money comes at the end of the week, and if it doesn't, they don't have a teacher on Monday.[/nq]
The problem for most of us, unfortunately, is that once we commit to a school for an academic year, it's difficult to get another job in November. I'm sure that you noticed that the school owners eased off a bit on the fisting right around December, when new groups are put together and there's a chance that a self-respecting individual might tell them to shove it and still make a go of it...found that one out the hard way in my first year here.
[nq:2]If you don't speak Greek fluently and can't "pass," the ... attached to an institution, you'll never go hungry in Greece.[/nq]
[nq:1]Mmm, sounds interesting. My Greek is basic, but it's there, and open to improvement. I haven't spent the last five ... a couple of years back and started learning Italian from scratch (mind you, Italian is a walkover compared with Greek).[/nq]
A higher standard seems to be expected from the Greek-somethings, but no one can get by without some coffee-talk, some basic political palaver, a couple of standard complimentary lines on the achievements of the great nation...schmooze, in other words. You might be OK with just some slight brushing up. Count the money in front of them the first couple of times, though.
On the CPE:
[nq:1]In fact the early 80s back in Athens was when I last taught Proficiency - it's fallen from favour with the inexorable rise of IELTS, and may have been revised over the years.[/nq]
Twice since then. Indeed, I have no idea what the CPE looked like before 1987.
[nq:2]There ain't all that much chance of that happening. Life ... here, and if you're not cheating, you're not really trying.[/nq]
[nq:1]Well, badly as this story reflects on me, it illustrates exactly that idea... Around about the time 911 happened I ... this; it was almost like "you're not stupid, and you don't always show your cards - we can do business".[/nq]
That just sounds so right, unfortunately.
There's an old Disney film called The Apple Dumpling Gang . I don't remember much of it, but there's this great line in it that I remember every time I feel down. Don Knotts, who plays the sheriff of a small town, in trying to explain things to the kids in the film, tells them. "I know he's in there. And he knows I know he's in there. And I know he knows I know he's in there. And he knows I know he knows I know he's in there. But what he doesn't know is that I know he knows I know he knows I know he's in there...but I KNOW...so I'VE got the edge.

Every single time one of those beady-eyed squints looks me up and down, I think about Don Knotts and his edge.

I have no edge, and I'm not playing a card here. This is my first post this week and I would just like to say that my heart goes out to every Briton in the world. Your beautiful, proud city has been defiled by animals.
I think most of you know what the world is like in Greece, but this particular New Yorker simply wishes that all of you didn't have to shoulder this great burden of sadness, anger and pain: I could take some of it from you in some way.

Usenet · Answer

On 8 Jul 2005 21:12:35 -0700, "credoquaabsurdum"
[nq:2]When I got my CELTA in 1982 (then called RSA ... having a degree anyway; I think things have now changed.[/nq]
[nq:1]Al lot of things went by the wayside when they stopped calling them RSA certificates and diplomas. I actually think that a full DELTA now requires no university degree. I may be wrong on that one, though,[/nq]
Well, I have a friend who has Trinity Dip but no degree, DELTA probably has the same entry requirements. For both you have to have two years + teaching experience; there's a strong argument that that's far more important than a degree anyway.
[nq:2]Yes. A lot of stuff clicks into place now. Including ... fully explained, but involved payment via envelopes full of drachmai...[/nq]
[nq:1]Ah, the beloved "fakelaki." One of my colleagues once had a private in a rich section of town who insisted ... by the butler. For my colleague, the rush was all in the presentation. He still salivates thinking about that tray.[/nq]
That's scarily cool...
[nq:1]The money in them HAS changed to euros, unfortunately. Ah, for that thick, meaty smell of those well-used 10,000 drachma notes...[/nq]
Oh, yes. Sadly I still have a couple of grand in drachma, together with a 50 French Franc note (sadly because I'd rather ahve their value...)
[nq:1]packing out the slightly-smudged white envelopes with real presence; yes, those were really the days, when you had to spend ... be worth half as much! ('Scuse me, let me just get out the ole hanky 'n wipe my mouth here.)[/nq]
In fact, the only time I've ever had surplus earnings was in Greece. Those envelopes just seemed to stack up and up in the top drawer.
[nq:2]Don't get me started on Strategakis...[/nq]
[nq:1]Strategakis is still alive and kicking, expanding, in point of fact. He's actually diversified into the CALL market, with Greek-English learning software.[/nq]
That's very interesting...
[nq:2]Well, a Uni post would be nice, but then I don't especially want to live in one of the cities.[/nq]
[nq:1]What's not to love? The stench? The grift? People packed seven to a room and blaring their banjo music at full blast every day and twice on Sunday?[/nq]
I loved living in Athens deeply - that smell of hot diesel and tiropittas still brings a lump to my throat. I'm not that keen on Thessalonki, though Patras is a nice city. Anyway, somewhere smaller would be nice if we were to go back.
Where are you in Greece Credo?
[nq:2]We made a comfortable living from private students, but it's ... if it doesn't, they don't have a teacher on Monday.[/nq]
[nq:1]The problem for most of us, unfortunately, is that once we commit to a school for an academic year, it's ... shove it and still make a go of it...found that one out the hard way in my first year here.[/nq]
Yes, that happened for sure.
[nq:1]I have no edge, and I'm not playing a card here. This is my first post this week and I ... shoulder this great burden of sadness, anger and pain: I could take some of it from you in some way.[/nq]
Thank you.
Stay well,
Django.

Usenet · Answer

I've been studying for CPE for an year and a half in a row, I don't think I'm prepare, I've done lots of mocks and just got Cs and Ds... I was wondering if you could give some tips...
I'm from Brasil and I don't have access to english speaking people, of course, just through internet...
Thks...

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