Drawn and tied

Question

Winning Ways for Your Mathematical Plays is a delightful book co-authored by an American (Elwyn R. Berlekamp) and two Brits (Richard K. Guy and the legendary John Horton Conway). At one point they are discussing the ways in which a game can terminate, and they say:
..
The words "tied" and "drawn" are often used interchangeably, though with slight transatlantic differences, for games which are neither won nor lost. We suggest that drawn be used for cases when this happens because play is drawn out indefinitely and tied for cases when play definitely ends but the rules do not award a win to either player.
..
My question is, does anyone know what the "slight transatlantic differences" are?
Over here on the left side of the pond, I would certainly use "tied" when each side has been assigned a number, and the numbers are the same the voting is tied, or the score is tied. In chess, I would use "drawn" for an inconclusive result of a single game, but "tied" for a match (Fischer and Spassky are tied at three games each). In other situations, I'm not sure which I'd use. If a tic-tac-toe game ends with neither player the winner, is that a tie or a draw?

4 a : an equality in number (as of votes or scores) b : equality in acontest; also : a contest that ends in a draw.
For "draw, they say:
3 : a contest left undecided or deadlocked : TIE

So they leave a lot of overlap between the two terms.

COED says, for "tie", noun:
3 a result in a game or match in which two or more competitors have tied. 4Brit. a sports match in which the winners proceed to the next round of the competition. 5 Cricket a game in which the scores are level and both sides have completed their innings. Compare with DRAW.
Definition 4 is confusing; I don't think we ever use "tie" that way over here.
For "tie," verb, COED has:
5 achieve the same score or ranking as another competitor.

And under "draw," noun, they have:
2 a game or match that ends with the scores even.

which begs the question of games that don't have scores.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Winning Ways for Your Mathematical Plays is a delightful bookco-authored by an American (Elwyn R. Berlekamp) and two Brits ... do not award a win to either player. .. My question is, does anyone know what the "slight transatlanticdifferences" are?[/nq]
For this BrE speaker, I would say that there is considerable overlap, but that "tie", unqualified, indicates a game still in progress whereas "draw" indicates a result. Thus "Arsenal and Man U are tied at one-all with 20 minutes to play" or "Arsenal and Man U drew one-all" may be said. "Arsenal and Man U is a one-all draw" would be the result of a finished match.
Even so, some speakers might say "Arsenal and Man U are drawing one-all", though that would indicate (to me at least) that there is very little time left in the game, and a draw is the likeliest result.
[nq:1]Over here on the left side of the pond, I would certainly use "tied"when each side has been assigned a ... an inconclusive result of a single game, but "tied" for a match (Fischerand Spassky are tied at three games each).[/nq]
For me too, except that I would consider a draw to be a conclusive result.
[nq:1]In other situations, I'm not sure which I'd use. If a tic-tac-toe game ends with neither player thewinner, is that a tie or a draw?[/nq]
I would way that that is a draw.
[nq:1]4 a : an equality in number (as of votes or scores) b : equality in a contest; also : ... a game or match that ends with the scores even. which begs the question of games that don't have scores.[/nq]
Is 0-0 (that's nil-nil, not short castling) not a score?

Regards,
Arfur

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Winning Ways for Your Mathematical Plays is a delightful book[/nq]
[nq:1]co-authored[/nq]
[nq:2]by an American (Elwyn R. Berlekamp) and two Brits (Richard K. Guyand[/nq]
[nq:1]when[/nq]
[nq:2]each side has been assigned a number, and the numbers are the same [/nq]
[nq:1]Is 0-0 (that's nil-nil, not short castling) not a score? Regards, Arfur[/nq]
In cricket, a tie is when both teams have scored the same number of runs at the close of normal play not curtailed by weather or bad light - in other words, when the requisite number of overs have been bowled. Because runs in cricket (especially for matches with two innings per side) can number the high hundreds, a tie is very rare. In a one-day match, where each side has one innings (AmE "inning"), a tie is more common, but there are methods of determining a winner (number of wickets to fall, for example). If both sides have the same number of runs from the same number of overs with the loss of the same number of wickets, then *** help us, because I believe the Duckworth-Lewis method is invoked, and no-one understands that.
Will.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Winning Ways for Your Mathematical Plays is a delightful bookco-authored by an American (Elwyn R. Berlekamp) and two Brits ... tied for cases when play definitely ends but the rules do not award a win to either player.[/nq]
This would be different from British usage, which is oriented by the uniqueness of cricket.

1. The rules of cricket provide for an equal result(a Draw) when the numbers scored by the teams
are unequal. This does not occur in any popular
game played in the USA (and does not occur in
other popular British games, e.g. soccer, rugby.)

2. A Tie specifies an equal result (neither teamwins) because both teams scored equally.

3. As another poster noted, the British football poolsgambling system reckons forecasts (of individual
matches) only as Win, Lose or Draw (draw
including tie) so that Draw is in wide vernacular use to include Tie (#2)
4. What these three authors suggest is theinverse of current British usage for Tie and
Draw. I see no advantage here, as offering
no clarifying information and at odds with an
established current usage.

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Usenet · Answer

Yes, but I wasn't so much thinking of that example as of games, like chess or tic-tac-toe, that use some method other than a numerical score to determine who has won. You could loosely say the game is a tie if neither player won, but I think "draw" is better in this case.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]co-authored the ways in with lost. play is but differences" ... Is 0-0 (that's nil-nil, not short castling) not a score?[/nq]
[nq:1]Yes, but I wasn't so much thinking of that example as of games, likechess or tic-tac-toe, that use some method ... could loosely say the game is a tie ifneither player won, but I think "draw" is better in this case.[/nq]
I see what you mean, I had misunderstood you, and I agree that "draw" would be better for those games. It has just occurred to me that a race that is drawn/tied is referred to as a "dead heat", with no apparent logic.
Regards,
Arfur

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]It has just occurred to me that a race that is drawn/tied is referred to as a "dead heat", with no apparent logic.[/nq]
It reminds me that a "heat" is an eliminating race in the Olympics I bet that is the same idea.

Best Donna Richoux

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Yes, but I wasn't so much thinking of that example ... won, but I think "draw" is better in this case.[/nq]
[nq:1]I see what you mean, I had misunderstood you, and I agree that "draw" would be better for those games.[/nq]
My (American) sense of "draw" is the game-theoretic one: "We agree that we could (probably or certainly) keep doing this indefinitely without either of us winning, so we'll stop".
In the special case of tic-tac-toe, I learned that a termination with no winner was a "cat's game". I know not why. The phrase isn't in MWCD11 nor does it turn up, even in quotes, in the OED. I've seen this extended to other situations in which neither player has a legal move and yet nobody has won.
[nq:1]It has just occurred to me that a race that is drawn/tied is referred to as a "dead heat", with no apparent logic.[/nq]
The OED invites us to Cf the following senses of "dead":
28. In dead pull , dead strain , applied to the absolute orutmost exertion of strength to move an inert or resisting body; sheer; also to such tension exerted without producing motion. See also DEAD-LIFT .
31. a. Absolute, complete, entire, thorough, downright. Also dead-earnest in adjectival use.
b. Quite certain, sure, unerring. (Cf. dead certainty in prec. sense.) dead shot , one whose aim is certain death; so dead on the bird . dead-on : certain, unerring, exactly right (see quot. 1889). See also DEAD-HAND 2. c. Exact.
d. Direct, straight. dead wind (Naut.): a wind directly opposed to the ship's course. (Cf. C. 3.) dead run : a run at full speed without any let-up. U.S.
My own folk etymological guess has rather been that it's a gambling term coming from the notion that in a two-person race with such a finish, no bets are paid. But I suspect that it may be more likely to have come from the notion that the racers finished "dead even".

For me:
Game called because of lack of likelihood of eventual victor: "draw" Game terminated normally without winner: "tie"
Game terminated because no more possible moves: "cat's game" Game (usually race) with continuous scoring terminated without measurable difference between scores: "dead heat"

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Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]If a tic-tac-toe game ends with neither player the winner, is that a tie or a draw?[/nq]
Neither; it's a "cat's game". Or at least that's what it was called when I were a lad.
(It might have been "cats game" or even "cats' game", as I never saw it in writing.)

Ray Heindl
(remove the Xs to reply)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]If a tic-tac-toe game ends with neither player the winner, is that a tie or a draw?[/nq]
[nq:1]Neither; it's a "cat's game". Or at least that's what it was called when I were a lad. (It might have been "cats game" or even "cats' game", as I never saw it in writing.)[/nq]
True; I recall that now myself; but that only means I need to come up with another example (other than chess) to convey what I mean. A game that can terminate with no winner, but that doesn't keep a numerical score. How about checkers ("draughts")? Can that be a draw?

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Neither; it's a "cat's game". Or at least that's what ... even "cats' game", as I never saw it in writing.)[/nq]
[nq:1]True; I recall that now myself; but that only means I need to come up with another example (other than ... terminate with no winner, but that doesn't keep a numerical score. How about checkers ("draughts")? Can that be a draw?[/nq]
I'll tell ya who's not a winner one who is drawn and quartered, that's who.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Drawn and tied

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