Do ships also flounder nowadays?

Question

I was reading a news article to-day(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3489852.stm), and it struck me that ships are increasingly inclined to flounder nowadays, presumably something less staid and passé than foundering, which ships in trouble were wont to do. A quick Google search gives 600 hits for 'foundering ship' and 300 hits for 'floundering ships'. The latter is by no means an insignificant proportion of the former, and cannot be explained away as typographical errors. Has this usage become accepted?

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I was reading a news article to-day (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3489852.stm), and it struck me that ships are increasingly inclined to flounder nowadays, ... means an insignificant proportion of the former, and cannot be explained away as typographical errors. Has this usage become accepted?[/nq]
It seems to be a commonly confused word pair, because a ship can both flounder (struggle, move aimlessly) and founder (sink). Searching on "ship floundered" does show the phrase being used to mean both. But style guides do list using "flounder" to mean "sink" as an error.

The Delaware Tech Style Guide
Flounder, founder: A flounder is a fish; flounder
means moving clumsily or jerkily, to flop about: The fish floundered on land. Founder refers to bogging down, becoming disabled, or sinking: The ship
floundered in the heavy seas for hours, then
foundered.
Common Errors in English
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html
As a verb, "founder" means "to fill with water and sink." It is also used metaphorically of various
kinds of equally catastrophic failures. In contrast, to flounder is to thrash about in the water (like a flounder), struggling to stay alive. "Flounder" is also often used metaphorically to indicate various sorts of desperate struggle. If you're sunk, you've foundered. If you're still struggling, you're
floundering.
M-W doesn't show "flounder" as having any additional meaning of "to sink," so no, I wouldn't say it's been accepted. Yet. Wait until the ratio drops closer to l:l, if it ever does.
Did you get any sense of how many of those "floundering ships" had the correct use of "flounder"? For the first hits on "ship floundered," it looked like maybe half, maybe a third. A correct example:

"Our ship floundered for three days in the turbulent ocean," Anisa recalls, "before we finally made it safely to shore."

And a faulty one:
However a further 80 refugees were drowned when their ship floundered off of Spain

Best Donna Richoux

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I was reading a news article to-day (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3489852.stm), and it struck me that ships are increasingly inclined to flounder nowadays, ... means an insignificant proportion of the former, and cannot be explained away as typographical errors. Has this usage become accepted?[/nq]Flounder, which m-w.com says is probably an alteration of founder, has been in use for some time to mean thrash about. A floundering ship is one that is not under control, tossed about by the waves and wind. To me it has the implication of a recoverable situation, wanting restoration of attention or repair of a malfunction. A foundering ship is one that's sinking. To me it has the implication of a situation unlikely to be recovered from. I googled Usenet on "floundering ship" and found several cases, mostly non-metaphorical, where "foundering" was more accurate.

Others, mostly metaphorical, clearly indicated a vessel not under command, which would better fit the "floundering". I'm much more used to seeing "flounder" without the ship attached to it, but I'd understand the (correctly applied) description of a floundering ship. However, I'd say it's apparent that "foundering ship", which I think *is* more of a set phrase, is frequently misspoken as "floundering ship".
V/R
Sam Melton

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I was reading a news article to-day (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3489852.stm), and it struck me that ships are increasingly inclined to flounder nowadays, ... means an insignificant proportion of the former, and cannot be explained away as typographical errors. Has this usage become accepted?[/nq]
I wonder if this has been at all affected by those "humorous" pictures in which a picture of a bottom-feeding fish is captioned "Our Flounder."(1)
Nah, probably not.
(1) A quick tour of Google Images got no closer than this: .

Bob Lieblich
Or perhaps it's just a fluke

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I was reading a news article to-day (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3489852.stm), and it struck me that ships are increasingly inclined to flounder nowadays, ... means an insignificant proportion of the former, and cannot be explained away as typographical errors. Has this usage become accepted?[/nq]
If cars can careen, why can't ships flounder?

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Flounder, which m-w.com says is probably an alteration of founder, has been in use for some time to mean thrash ... it's apparent that "foundering ship", which I think *is* more of a set phrase, is frequently misspoken as "floundering ship".[/nq]
When an oil tanker founders, seagulls covered with crude oil are likely to flounder.

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]I was reading a news article to-day (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3489852.stm), and it ... explained away as typographical errors. Has this usage become accepted?[/nq]
[nq:1]I wonder if this has been at all affected by those "humorous" pictures in which a picture of a bottom-feeding fish is captioned "Our Flounder."(1) Nah, probably not.[/nq]
I recall reading something like that in a Pogo comic once - a "Message from the Flounder".

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]It seems to be a commonly confused word pair, because a ship can both flounder (struggle, move aimlessly) and founder ... the phrase being used to mean both. But style guides do list using "flounder" to mean "sink" as an error.[/nq]
True enough... I suppose I didn't really consider that a ship could 'flounder' as well as 'founder'. Someone, it is difficult for me to picture a ship thrashing around.
[nq:1]M-W doesn't show "flounder" as having any additional meaning of "to sink," so no, I wouldn't say it's been accepted. ... of "flounder"? For the first hits on "ship floundered," it looked like maybe half, maybe a third. A correct example:[/nq]
Well... the impression I got from the Google survey was that when a literal ship was described, 'floundering' was almost always incorrect. The were a number of metaphorical uses though, e.g., in describing a ship of state, where I couldn't really determining whether 'foundering' was intended or not.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Flounder, which m-w.com says is probably an alteration of founder, ... of a set phrase, is frequently misspoken as "floundering ship".[/nq]
[nq:1]When an oil tanker founders, seagulls covered with crude oil are likely to flounder.[/nq]
And the ship and gulls will sleep with the flounders.

john

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I was reading a news article to-day (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3489852.stm), and it struck me that ships are increasingly inclined to flounder nowadays, ... means an insignificant proportion of the former, and cannot be explained away as typographical errors. Has this usage become accepted?[/nq]
I have found it to be more common that flounders often ship, particularly to the west coast.
DJ
preface email addie with 'd' to defeat anti-spaminator

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]I have found it to be more common that flounders often ship, particularly to the west coast.[/nq]
How very droll. :-)

Do ships also flounder nowadays?

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