Crazy idea: Spamming the English Vocabulary~~

Question

The facts1. The QWERT 101/103 keyboard layout has dominated the world andpeoples of all native languages have got used to that.2. So have the 26 English letters.3. Non-English speakers have to learn thousands of English words inorder to read/write "English". Their own words become useless and obsolete...4. Many German, French, Spanish words have been borrowed into English,but that's not true for East Asian words (Chinese, Japanese, Korean).The idea: Toward A Bigger English VocabularyEncourage Chinese-English bilingual users to intentionally mix their English writings with Chinese PinYin words... Same applies to Japanese and Korean...The result...1. Chinese English learners would feel it easier to learn Englishwords that have Chinese origin... And Chinese words are saved...2. Non-Chinese speakers may feel a little more difficult and,interesting, to learn "complete English".3. The QWERT keyboard layout, the 26 English letters, and the "Englishlanguage", would become truly global.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]The facts 1. The QWERT 101/103 keyboard layout has dominated the world and peoples of all native languages have got ... German, French, Spanish words have been borrowed into English, but that's not true for East Asian words (Chinese, Japanese, Korean).[/nq]
##1 and 2 are true. Current world dominance of
the QWERTY keyboard and the 26 letters of written
English are fine examples of "suboptimization" as
coined by Kenneth Boulding:
a) They are not the best but are good enough
and the cheapest available for many users.
b) Their origins (e.g. QWERTY in avoidance of
type bar jams) is irrelevant to their utility e.g. in computer keyboards;
c) Their theoretical limitations or inferiorities are irrelevant compared with their cheap availability
to new users.
I.e. ESL learners adopt QWERTY and 26 letters because they are fit for use and ready now and cheapest
not because they are the best for use.
#3 seems untrue: no evidence suggests that successful ESL learning makes the mother tongue vocabulary
"useless and obsolete."
#4 is also not quite true. Most European loan-words have been borrowed from other European language
groups (and I dare say Chinese has borrowed more
words from nearby, e.g. India or Japan, than from
far distant, e.g. Greenland or Madagascar.) But
English has borrowed plenty of words from Asia,
most from India (through British soldiers living in India over 200 years) but a few from China and
Japan as well. (A few lists circulate, from bungalow to sushi.)
[nq:1]The idea: Toward A Bigger English Vocabulary Encourage Chinese-English bilingual users to intentionally mix their English writings with Chinese PinYin words... Same applies to Japanese and Korean...[/nq]
English writing requires English vocabulary,
grammar and syntax. PinYin is a method of
transliteration (Latin approximation of Chinese
ideographs or sounds). It has no vocabulalry,
grammar or syntax, thus cannot "mix" profitably
in English texts. English may of course borrow
from Chinese wherever functionally convenient.
[nq:1]The result... 1. Chinese English learners would feel it easier to learn English words that have Chinese origin... And Chinese words are saved...[/nq]
This promised ease may be an illusion. E.g. I have huge difficulties with the Dutch vocabulary because many of its terms are neo-English and others are
neo-German (and I speak English and German
much better than Dutch.) The affinity (or loan-words) is in this case an obstacle, not an aid.
[nq:1]3. The QWERT keyboard layout, the 26 English letters, and the "English language", would become truly global.[/nq]
This seems to have happened already through
the PC if not the typewriter. (The phenomenon of
suboptimization needs no external help.)
Ezra Pound announced nearly a century ago the
importance of the difference between ideographic
languages and alphabetic languages. If anything
new emerges here I suggest it may come sooner
from Japan (because of its phonetic ideographs)
than from China.

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)

Usenet · Answer

"Don Phillipson" (Email Removed) wrote on 11 Dec 2003:

Japanese has no phonetic ideograms, only two phonetic syllabaries, hiragana and katakana. The former is used to phonetically spell Japanese words and the latter, foreign words. While it is true that these symbols are taken from Chinese characters, they are all or almost all only a part of the ideograms they are taken from. Each symbol represents a sound in the /a i e o u//ka ki ke ko ku/ etc Japanese language; none represents an idea or a thing. We have the same kind of phonetic syllabary here in Taiwan for Chinese: BO-PO-MO-FO. The PRC has its phonetic symbols as well. Korean is now written in phonetic symbols.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Ezra Pound announced nearly a century ago the importance of the difference between ideographic languages and alphabetic languages. If anything new emerges here I suggest it may come sooner from Japan (because of its phonetic ideographs) than from China.[/nq]
"Phonetic ideographs" seems an odd way to put it. Japanese uses a mixed system, in which ideographic characters are combined with syllabic characters. A second syllabary is used to represent foreign words, but since it like the first syllabary follows Japanese phonology, those words end up greatly distorted in pronunciation when compared to the original.

I really don't understand what the problems are to which the original poster is suggesting a solution. On the question of words borrowed from Asian languages, if English needs a word, its speakers appear to have little hesitation in borrowing it.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]##1 and 2 are true. Current world dominance of the ... from Japan (because of its phonetic ideographs) than from China.[/nq]
[nq:1]Japanese has no phonetic ideograms, only two phonetic syllabaries, hiragana and katakana. The former is used to phonetically spell Japanese ... in Taiwan for Chinese: BO-PO-MO-FO. The PRC has its phonetic symbols as well. Korean is now written in phonetic symbols.[/nq]
To be specific, Korean is written in an alphabet (representing phonemes, not syllables) put together in a square form which is reminiscent of the look of Chinese ideographs. I wonder if Korean phonology tends to distort the pronunciation of words borrowed from other languages in the same way that Japanese phonology does.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

"Raymond S. Wise" (Email Removed) wrote on 12 Dec 2003:
[nq:1]To be specific, Korean is written in an alphabet (representing phonemes, not syllables) put together in a square form which ... phonology tends to distort the pronunciation of words borrowed from other languages in the same way that Japanese phonology does.[/nq]
I don't know any Korean. All that I could read in Korea were the Chinese characters. I have no more knowledge of that language than that one sentence I wrote. What you say about the writing system is very interesting though.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]4. Many German, French, Spanish words have been borrowed into English, but that's not true for East Asian words (Chinese, Japanese, Korean).[/nq]
You are wrong.
I will ignore the Indian subcontinent (and Sri Lanka), which has contributed many words to English. As well, I am omitting Tatar, Palynesian, Australian aboriginal languages and such. Skeat's list dates from 1882, 121 years ago. By then he had (collapsing intermediaries)

Malay: babirusa, bamboo, caddy, cajuput (cajeput), cassowary. cockatoo, crease (or creese, a dagger), dugong, durian, gecko, gong, gutta-percha, junk, ketchp, lory (lury), mangosteen, muck (smuck), orang-outang (orang-utan), paddy, proa, rattan, rusa, sago, siamang, tripang, upas, gingham, ratafia, camphor
Chinese: bohea, china, Chinese, congou, hyson, nankeen, souchong, tea, (possibly) silk, sampan, serge
Japanese: harakiri, japan, soy, bonze
Java: bantam
Annamese: gamboge
In the 121 years since Skeat made his list, many more words have come into English from East Asia. I will not do an exhaustive search, but MWCD11 yields (modulo my miscounting)
Malay: 60 headwords
Chinese: 92 headwords
Japanese: 146 headwords
Korean: 10 headwords
Khmer: 4 headwords

Martin Ambuhl

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]4. Many German, French, Spanish words have been borrowed into English, but that's not true for East Asian words (Chinese, Japanese, Korean).[/nq]
[nq:1]You are wrong. I will ignore the Indian subcontinent (and Sri Lanka), which has contributed many words to English. As ... MWCD11 yields (modulo my miscounting) Malay: 60 headwords Chinese: 92 headwords Japanese: 146 headwords Korean: 10 headwords Khmer: 4 headwords[/nq]
Including the following:
Chinese: gung ho and pekoe.
Japanese: ramen, tofu, samurai, geisha, sushi, fugu, karaoke, hooch (or hootch) meaning "hut" or "house."
Malay: mango and mangrove both different from "mangosteen," although it is not clear to me whether or not they all came from the same root.

And let's give Japanese "anime" honorable mention.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]c) Their theoretical limitations or inferiorities are[/nq]
I think you mean "innate" instead of "theoretical".
[nq:1]irrelevant compared with their cheap availability[/nq]
Negligible, yes, but not irrelevant.

Usenet · Answer

Try this www.topsn.com/osprey a great software for spoken Chinese learning.

Keith
scn (Email Removed)
www.topsn.com/osprey

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Japanese has no phonetic ideograms, only two phonetic syllabaries, hiragana and katakana. The former is used to phonetically spell Japanese words and the latter, foreign words.[/nq]
Don't forget romanji. My one Japanese article has a bunch of words written that way, mostly acronyms and initialisms (eg, RPC, CORBA, ORB, API). Oh, and the middle initials of both me and my co-author. (Our first and last names are in katakana.)

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >If to "man" a phone implies handing
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >it over to a person of the malePalo Alto, CA 94304 >gender, then to "monitor" it

(650)857-7572 > Rohan Oberoi

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Crazy idea: Spamming the English Vocabulary~~

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