Could you at least tell me where we're going?

Question

Context: Two are heading somewhere, and the one following the other asks:
(1) Could you at least tell me where we're going?
(2) Could you at least tell me where we were going?

Is (2) possible in context?

Fivejedjon · Accepted Answer

Yes, it is possible in context.

JungKim · Answer

Thanks.
The context is that we are going in the present.
If "were" is possible, does it because of backshifting?

In a previous thread, backshifting was not allowed for the same main clause:
Could you tell me what your name is? (O)
Could you tell me what your name was? (X) (Unless the name has changed)

Is there any reason for this different treatment?

CalifJim · Answer

JungKimIs (2) possible in context?

It doesn't seem possible to me. Not if the two are in the process of going somewhere at the time this is said.

CJ

JungKim · Answer

CalifJimIt doesn't seem possible to me. Not if the two are in the process of going somewhere at the time this is said.

So is it safe to say that backshifting isn't allowed in these constructions (this and the other thread)?

GPY · Answer

JungKimCould you tell me what your name was? (X) (Unless the name has changed)

I think that people do sometimes say "Could you tell me what your name was?" even when the name has not changed, as a more polite / less direct form.

CalifJim · Answer

JungKimSo is it safe to say that backshifting isn't allowed in these constructions (this and the other thread)?

No. See GPY's comment. Secondly, "Could you (please) ...?" is a formula of politeness that stands in for the more direct present tense ("Can you (please) ...?"), so, at least to me, the past tense in your example ("was") is not a true backshift.

CJ

JungKim · Answer

GPYI think that people do sometimes say "Could you tell me what your name was?" even when the name has not changed, as a more polite / less direct form.

CalifJimNo. See GPY's comment. Secondly, "Could you (please) ...?" is a formula of politeness that stands in for the more direct present tense ("Can you (please) ...?"), so, at least to me, the past tense in your example ("was") is not a true backshift.

CJ, I'm confused. What do you mean "see GPY's comment" when you don't agree that (2) in the "name" thread is possible or that backshfiting is allowed in that construction?

CalifJim · Answer

JungKimCJ, I'm confused.

Yes. I see that. Me too. Too many variables. Two examples on one thread, another two on this thread, and comments by various people on various examples.

You: (2) Could you at least tell me where we were going? Is (2) possible in context?
Me: It doesn't seem possible to me. [I'm speaking only of this (2), not the one on the other thread.]
GPY: I think that people do sometimes say "Could you tell me what your name was?" even when the name has not changed, as a more polite / less direct form. [Speaking of the (2) on the other thread.]

So far, GPY and I are not even talking about the same example.

You: So is it safe to say that backshifting isn't allowed in these constructions (this and the other thread)?
Me: No.
__________________

The problem is that these cases don't even involve a true backshift at all. The verbs that appear in the present and then in the past are within indirect questions. The time period they refer to is given by the tense directly, not in relation to the main verb.

A. Here are two "polite vs neutral" pairs.

Could I ask what your name is? Can I ask what your name is? (what it is now)
Could I ask where we're going? Can I ask where we're going? (where we are going now)

B. The "could - can" variants are also possible when you ask about a past situation, yielding two different "polite vs neutral" pairs.

Could I ask what your name was? Can I ask what your name was? (what it was then; what it used to be)
Could I ask where we were going? Can I ask where we were going? (where we were going then)

C. To make things more complicated, the speaker can use a "past of politeness" (which I personally do not regard as a backshift) inside the indirect question instead of the present tense. Since the politeness form of the main clause uses "could" and not "can", the forms with "can" shown below are not very likely to be used that way, with a "past of politeness".

Could I ask what your name was? Can I ask what your name was? (what it is now)
Could I ask where we were going? Can I ask where we were going? (where we are going now)

[My personal view is that none of the forms immediately above (i.e., with the "past of politeness") is very likely to be used. As GPY has pointed out, however, people do sometimes use them, or at least the first one shown.]

It cannot escape your notice that the sentences in group B are exactly the same as those in group C. This is why the topic is so confusing. Some who reply to your question may be thinking of the meanings in B when they reply; others, of the meanings in C.

CJ

JungKim · Answer

Thanks for the detailed answer, CJ.
Sorry if I made things more complicated than is necessary by involving two different threads.

CalifJimThe problem is that these cases don't even involve a true backshift at all. The verbs that appear in the present and then in the past are within indirect questions. The time period they refer to is given by the tense directly, not in relation to the main verb.

How about this example?
I wish he realized that she had too many commitments.
('had' here is a backshifted past tense.)
Here, is the time period "had" refers to given by the tense directly? Or is the time period "had" refers to in relation to the main verb ("realized")? Does it really matter what time period "had" refers to?

CalifJimIt cannot escape your notice that the sentences in group B are exactly the same as those in group C.

Not to confuse anyone anymore, I was asking about group C all along, both in this thread and the other.

CalifJimSome who reply to your question may be thinking of the meanings in B when they reply; others, of the meanings in C.

I can't tell you what others were thinking, but in this thread I have laid out the context at the outset (Two are heading somewhere), so I believe both fivejedjon and GPY were thinking of group C when they replied.

CalifJim[My personal view is that none of the forms immediately above (i.e., with the "past of politeness") is very likely to be used. As GPY has pointed out, however, people do sometimes use them, or at least the first one shown.]

Would this be a BrE/AmE thing?

CalifJim · Answer

JungKimHow about this example?I wish he realized that she had too many commitments.

Oof! "wish" is a highly idiosyncratic verb. I agree that "had" is a backshift (realized that).

JungKimHere, is the time period "had" refers to given by the tense directly? Or is the time period "had" refers to in relation to the main verb ("realized")?

The time period of 'had' relates to the superordinate clause (realized). Does it really matter? Probably not. If the speaker is really concerned about that aspect of his statement, he/she will say it in a different way or add more to clarify the meaning.

JungKimI can't tell you what others were thinking, but in this thread I have laid out the context at the outset (Two are heading somewhere), so I believe both fivejedjon and GPY were thinking of group C when they replied.

That's my judgment as well.

JungKimWould this be a BrE/AmE thing?

I don't know. I'm not an expert on BrE/AmE differences. I don't think so, but it's possible.

CJ

Could you at least tell me where we're going?

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