Could we settle the date for this meeting when we (will) know more details?

Question

Hello.What 'will' should we remove from the sentences below to make them grammatically correct?1) Could we settle the date for this meeting when we (will) know more details?2) We (will) do this when we (will) have as much information as we (will) need.3) We (will) do this when the sun (will) come out.Their intended meaning is about the future. My shot at them is the following:1) Could we settle the date for this meeting when we know more details?No 'will' after 'when' because we don't know when we will (please confirm this usage of 'will' here) know more details - this time is not known at the time of speaking.2) We will do this when we have as much information as we need.Here, similarly, we don't know when we will have sufficient information, thus no 'will' used.3) We will do this when the sun will come out.Here I used 'will' because we know (more or less) when the sun will come out.Is my reasoning correct?

AlpheccaStars · Accepted Answer

1) Could we settle the date for this meeting when we know more details?
The when-clause defines a "truth test" which can be evaluated at any time in the future. At present, it evaluates to "false" but sometime in the future it will evaluate to "true." At that time, the main clause is put into effect.

When clause - We know more details (presently = false)
We don't know when it will evaluate to "true" but when it does, we could settle the date.

2) We will do this when we have as much information as we need.
3) We will do this when the sun comes out.

Reegis · Answer

AlpheccaStarsThe when-clause defines a "truth test" which can be evaluated at any time in the future. At present, it evaluates to "false" but sometime in the future it will evaluate to "true." At that time, the main clause is put into effect.

This is the first time I read such an explanation and must say that it is very clear and I like it!

AlpheccaStarsWe don't know when it will evaluate to "true" but when it does, we could settle the date.

Hmmm, so does it matter if the time of the event in the when-clause is known at the time of speaking? I have read somewhere that this might be a factor in such situations.

For example here:
3) We will do this when the sun comes out.
We know when the sun will come out - similiarly like the day before

Shouldn't we use 'will' in this sentence?

Or to make this factor even more visible:
4) We will do this when Jack turns / will turn 19.
We know when his birthday is (and will be), so should we put 'will' here?

AlpheccaStars · Answer

ReegisHmmm, so does it matter if the time of the event in the when-clause is known at the time of speaking?

No.

ReegisWe know when the sun will come out - similiarly like the day before Shouldn't we use 'will' in this sentence?

No.

The sun is behind some clouds.
We will put up the shade when the sun comes out.
We have no idea when the clouds will be blown away. (Will is OK here. It is not a true-false truth test)

We will have a service on Easter morning when the sun comes up / rises.

Reegis4) We will do this when Jack turns / will turn 19.We know when his birthday is (and will be), so should we put 'will' here?

No. e.g.
When Jack turns 19, he will enlist in the Navy.

CalifJim · Answer

Reegiswhen we (~~will~~) know more details

Basic rule: We 'never' use will after the subordinators 'if', 'when', 'after', 'as soon as', 'once', 'until', etc.

Once we [find out / ~~will find out~~], we'll let everyone know.
The bomb will explode when you [flip / ~~will flip~~] this switch.
That question will remain unanswered until the CEO [announces / ~~will announce~~] her decision.
_________________________

Exception: 'if' and 'when' can be used to introduce indirect questions that contain will. These can often be recognized by the fact that they occur after verbs that take indirect questions as complements, e.g., "don't know", "wonder", "ask".

I wonder if they will be ready on time. / One of the customers is asking when the manager will be available to resolve this matter. / The supervisor is not going to tell them when he will be dropping in to observe them.
_________________________

There are some (rather unusual and rare) cases where 'if' or 'when' can fulfill either role, i.e., a subordinator introducing an adverbial clause or an indicator of an indirect question. If it's in the role of subordinator, you can't use will. If it's in the role of indirect question, you can use will.

Subordinator when:
Can you please let me know when the train [arrives / ~~will arrive~~]? (Let me know (something not specified) at the time that the train arrives.)

Indirect question when:
Can you please let me know when the train [arrives / will arrive]? (Let me know the time of the train's arrival.)

CJ

Reegis · Answer

Thanks AlpheccaStars and CalifJim. I think that now this topic is almost fully clear to me

Almost...

Let me make sure about two issues:

1) I understand that both
- Can you please let me know when the train arrives?
and
- Can you please let me know when the train will arrive?
are grammatical. They just have different meanings. After the first one the answerer will wait for the train and then will say "There you go, now it is!", but after the second one he will answer "Yeah, no problem, it will arrive at 17:00".
Do I understand this correctly?

2) In this topic:

You wrote this:

CalifJimBe sure to note carefully in these last two examples that the situations in the when clauses are known: We know for a fact when everybody else will be at home -- after 5 o'clock. We know for a fact when you will have established yourself -- by the end of the year. This must be seen as very different from the arrival example, where we do not know when John will arrive, so we say We'll leave when he arrives. (We need to wait until the arrival happens before we know when it will happen).

And now I suspect that I might have overinterpreted your words... Is the fact, that the situations in the when-clauses are known, a sufficient condition for using 'will'? It seems not, otherwise my sentence "We will do this when Jack will turn 19" would be correct but it is not...

CalifJim · Answer

Reegis1) I understand that both- Can you please let me know when the train arrives?and- Can you please let me know when the train will arrive?are grammatical. They just have different meanings.

Close. The first one can have two meanings — Meaning A and Meaning B below. The second one can only have one meaning — Meaning B.

Meaning A: Let me know that information that we were talking about earlier, but not now. Wait until the train arrives, and then let me know that information.
Meaning B: The information I want to know is the time of the train's arrival. Let me know that information now.

Let me contextualize them a little more. The situations are somewhat contrived, but that's necessary in order to clarify what I mean.

Meaning A:
— I am concerned that the new pair of skis that I ordered is not coming in on this train.
— I'm sorry sir, but we don't have information available to us about specific items of freight on each train.
— How soon will you know?
— The train arrives at 8 o'clock. We won't know what's in the freight compartment until then.
— OK. Then can you please let me know (if my skis are on the train) when the train arrives?
[You cannot substitute 'will arrive' here.]
[You can put the when-clause first here. When the train arrives, let me know (if my skis are on the train).]

Meaning B:
— I don't know the train schedule very well.
— Which train are you interested in?
— The train arriving from Chicago. What time does it arrive?
— OK. So you want to know what time the train from Chicago arrives?
— Yes. Can you please let me know (by looking at your schedule) when the train [arrives / will arrive]?
— It arrives at 8:15.
— Thank you.
[You can substitute 'will arrive' here.]
[You cannot put the when-clause first here. ~~[When the train will arrive / The arrival time] let me know.~~]

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

ReegisIs the fact that the situations in the when-clauses are known a sufficient condition for using 'will'?

I'm lost. In my opinion none of that has anything to do with using 'will', if I understand what you're asking.

ReegisWe will do this when Jack will turn 19.

You can't do that! ... when Jack turns 19 specifies the time when you will "do this". It says something like "We are going to wait until Jack turns 19, and then we will do this". It's not an indirect question. In other words the sentence doesn't indirectly ask "When will Jack turn 19?" as it does in

We'd like to know [when / the date that] Jack will turn 19.
I wonder [when / what date] Jack will turn 19.
Nobody has been able to guess [when / the date that] Jack will turn 19.
____________________

When the when-clause is adverbial, you can't use 'will'. The clause stands apart from the rest of the sentence. It's there just to specify the time at which the action in the main clause is going to take place. You can still have a complete clause — the main clause — if you remove the when-clause. You can put these before the main clause or after it.

Turn off the heat when the water starts to boil.
When the water starts to boil, turn off the heat.
Turn off the heat.

When the when-clause has interrogative polarity, you can use 'will' (or not). The clause is one of the constituents of the main clause, usually acting as a sort of direct object. You won't end up with a very informative complete sentence if you remove this kind of when-clause. And you can't put this kind of when-clause at the beginning of a sentence without making the sentence sound very unusual.

I wonder when they'll paint the house.
???When they'll paint the house, I wonder.
???I wonder.

CJ

Reegis · Answer

Ufff, now I think that I have managed to digest all the information from you

Very informative and comprehensive post.

CalifJimClose. The first one can have two meanings — Meaning A and Meaning B below.

So as it usually happens with two meanings - it is context that makes it clear which one is intended?

CalifJimI wonder [when / what date] Jack will turn 19.

Then the clue to understanding exceptions to the rule that we should 'never' use 'will' after the subordinators 'if', 'when', 'after', 'as soon as', 'once', 'until', etc. is to make sure that our sentence is in fact an indirect question, and it is the only factor here. For example the new sentence below:
a) I guess it is her decision if she will finish this work.
Is an indirect question - we are asking if she will really do this. On the other hand the sentence:
b) We will start the game if she finishes this work.
Is a subordinator introducing an adverbial clause, thus no 'will' after 'if'. We are waiting for her, and only after that we can start the game.
If what I said above is correct, I think I truly grasped this:)

CalifJimI'm lost. In my opinion none of that has anything to do with using 'will', if I understand what you're asking.

I got this impression from these words:
Be sure to note carefully in these last two examples that the situations in the when clauses are known: We know for a fact when everybody else will be at home -- after 5 o'clock. We know for a fact when you will have established yourself -- by the end of the year. This must be seen as very different from the arrival example, where we do not know when John will arrive, so we say We'll leave when he arrives. (We need to wait until the arrival happens before we know when it will happen).
Where you contrasted the situation that is known (and has 'will') with the situation that is not known (and does not have 'will'). But as I said, obviously I was wrong and must have overinterpreted your words. Now it is clear

AlpheccaStars · Answer

ReegisSo as it usually happens with two meanings - it is context that makes it clear which one is intended?

Yes.

A: I'm expecting my daughter to be on the 7:44 train. I'll wait in the car about a 5-minute drive away.
Can you please let me know (call my cell phone) when the train arrives?

B: I lost today's train schedule.
Can you please let me know when the afternoon train from Chicago arrives?
or
Can you please let me know when the afternoon train from Chicago will arrive?
or
When will the afternoon train from Chicago arrive?

Reegis · Answer

Now it dawned on me...

I think that in B we can also ask:
When does the afternoon train from Chicago arrive? (as a scheduled event in the near future)
And it explains why the version of the when-clause with the present simple has this second meaning!

Could we settle the date for this meeting when we (will) know more details?

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