correct transcription of the u-sound in 'cut', 'fun', 'understand'...

Question

Hello, I have a question about the u-sound in words like cut, particularly in American English.

Usually, these words are transcribed using the /?/-symbol (/\, open-mid back unrounded), but I doubt this is the correct sound (I can't remember ever hearing it, but then again, I'm not a native speaker).

In school, they taught us to pronounce more like the /?/ (upside-down a, near-open central), but again, I don't think that's how most people pronouce it. In addition to the a-like-sound, I think also I'm hearing some u-flavor, but it's not really an /?/ (though maybe some UK speakers tend to pronounce it in such a way).

Am I right that there is no IPA-symbol corresponding to that sound (or can this be achieved using one of the whacky modifiers)? Or is it just my untrained ears that are deceiving me?

Thanks,

Thomas (from Germany)

CalifJim · Accepted Answer

The only IPA symbol I've ever seen used for that sound is the "inverted  V".  On my keyboard I use the sign that's the uppercase pair to  '6', even though it's not exactly the same in shape and size as the IPA  symbol:  /^/.  /k^t, f^n/.  (American English).   (The transcription of "cut" and "fun" as said in Liverpool would be  very different, for example.)

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks,

CalifJimThe only IPA symbol I've ever seen used for that sound is the "inverted V".

Wikipedia claims the usage of that inverted V only has historical reasons:

In RP and GA, <?> is used for [?] because it is the traditional symbol used for the phonemic transcription of this vowel.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open_central_vowel)

Anyway, I'm beginning to think that the inverted a really is the correct transcription, and most of my confusion arose because we actually were taught to use /a/ (as in German 'Ball') in school, which is obviously not right. I believe the standard pronunciaton of 'u' is not exactly like the samples of /?/ I've heard (which also differ a little bit from each other), but probably close enough.

Thomas

PS. Are you aware of any websites that have sound samples of spoken texts and corresponding IPA-transcriptions other than http://accent.gmu.edu/ ?

CalifJim · Answer

It may be a font problem, but your frequently quoted alternative to the inverted V shape is a question mark on my monitor. I've not seen the question mark as an IPA symbol, and your description of it makes me think it's the symbol for the British lax 'o' as in British "got". If so, this is definitely not the sound of the American lax 'u'. As for "traditional symbol", I suppose it depends on whose tradition you focus on!

Use Google and you may find that site where the great Ladefoged himself recites the IPA alphabet, if it's still around. I stumbled across it once myself, but I can't say exactly where it is just now. Let me know if you find it.

CJ

Anonymous · Answer

I found the page, it's
http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/index.html
Thanks, that is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

So, judgin from the sound samples on
http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter4/4vowels.html
I think I still have troubles recognizing the /\-sound on stressed and unstressed syllables as the same sound (the reduced one is a schwa and certainly different from the others). I hope I can resolve that by going over the lectures more deeply.

The alternative 'upside-down a' I was talking about is actually this:

Since the character encoding of this page here is UTF-8, the symbol should appear correctly if you have an appropriate font installed. The remark at the bottom

suggests that the Internet Explorer doesn't just use an alternative font for the symbols when the currently used font doesn't have it - which seems pretty dumb to me, but it shouldn't be used anyway.

Thomas

Anonymous · Answer

ISo, judgin from the sound samples on I think I still have troubles recognizing the /\-sound on stressed and unstressed syllables as the same sound (the reduced one is a schwa and certainly different from the others).

Well, they can't be; the second 'o' in confront is the same sound as in 'stock', and the umbrella-'u' is the same as 'stuck'. But 'stock' and 'stuck' are clearly pronounced differently.

So, the tables on
http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter4/4vowels.html
don't seem to contain phonetic transcriptions. They don't even distinguish American and British pronunciation, although there are very different. An extreme example is 'confirm' - the British speaker doesn't pronounce the r, yet the transcription contains this ~-like symbol.

Thomas (hopelessly confused)

CalifJim · Answer

the second 'o' in confront is the same sound as in 'stock'

Maybe in British English. Certainly not in American English. In AmE both 'o's in 'confront' are pronounced the same, the same as the vowel in 'stuck'. The difference is stress. The first 'o' in AmE 'confront' is unstressed, so usually transcribed as an "upside-down e". The second is usually transcribed as an "inverted V". To my ear the two are one and the same sound in 'confront', except for the difference in stress.

CJ

Nona the brit · Answer

Not in BrE either.  The two 'o's in confront have different sounds but depending on the speaker, either the first o either sounds like stock or a schwa.

correct transcription of the u-sound in 'cut', 'fun', 'understand'...

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