Correct Grammar

Question

Is one Mr. Lim correct in commenting on an english paper as follows?

Furthermore, the usage, "I enquired from" is not a standard form of English, it should be "I enquired of".

I was fuming with anger when I read the last sentence of the passage: "This will definitely be one experience that I will never forget!"

What was the author trying to say - did the experience happen or did it not? It should read: "That was definitely an experience that I will never forget!"

Did the author imply that the experience is yet to happen? The correct one should be: "That was definitely an experience that I will never forget!"

Thanks.
regards,
Ernest Yong

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi,

Is one Mr. Lim correct in commenting on an english paper as follows?

It's not clear to me which of these remarks are Mr. Lim's, and which are yours?

Furthermore, the usage, "I enquired from" is not a standard form of English, it should be "I enquired of". Generally speaking, ths is true. Although you could say eg

I enquired from the corner of the room whether Napoleon was French.

I was fuming with anger when I read the last sentence of the passage: "This will definitely be one experience that I will never forget!" This is a correct sentence.

What was the author trying to say - did the experience happen or did it not? It should read: "That was definitely an experience that I will never forget!" This is also a correct sentence.

Did the author imply that the experience is yet to happen? The correct one should be: "That was definitely an experience that I will never forget!" This is also a correct sentence.

Consider this simple example.

My house burns down. I am rescued by the firemen.

I can say various things, depending on how I am thinking about these events.

I say , "That was definitely an experience that I will never forget!" I'm thinking of the experience as finished.

I say , "That will definitely be one experience that I will never forget!" I'm forecasting how I will think about it in the future, eg once I have absorbed it fully into my mind.

I can also say , "That is definitely be one experience that I will never forget!" I'm thinking of the experience as still part of the present situation, as still taking place.

Clive

ErnestYong · Answer

Dear Mr. Clive,
Thank you very much indeed for your input. You do live up to your reputation as a veteran in this forum.

Sorry for not be clear as to the sources of remarks.
There is a dispute over correct grammar in an English language paper set for a public examination, as follows.
Article dated 24.10.2010 by Mr. Lim:

http://thestar.com.my/education/story.asp?file=/2010/10/24/education/7228724&sec=education http://thestar.com.my/education/story.asp?file=/2010/10/24/education/7228724&sec=education

Reply dated 31.10.2010 by Marisa Demori,

http://thestar.com.my/education/story.asp?file=/2010/10/31/education/7293624&sec=education http://thestar.com.my/education/story.asp?file=/2010/10/31/education/7293624&sec=education

In fact all those remarks (criticisms) were Mr. Lim's. I have just reproduced verbatim what he commented in the Star Newspaper. I am in the process of writing my own remarks as a self-appointed arbiter, which will include acknowledgment of assistance I obtain from this forum, which is extremely useful, and i request your permission to do so. In a way, this forum will gain greater publicity, which is good for improving the appalling standard of the English language in many parts of the world, where English is not the native language. I hope you could kindly proof-read for me before i send it to the editor.

In the dispute over correct grammar, this following is what Mr, Lim further commented:

START:

Then, in the fourth paragraph, the passage read: “I enquired from someone and was told to wait at a bus stop across the road. Hence, I waited eagerly…”

The word “hence” means “for that reason” and to me, it is not an appropriate word to use in that context. The word “hence” is a formal word, it should not be included in that context and is not followed by a comma but a noun, or noun phrase.

For example, “He was involved in a serious road accident – hence the scars.”

This is like a square peg in a round hole. Hence, the writer or teacher has poor diction.

END:

I would appreciate your comments on Mr. Lim's criticism above.

Thanks.

Regards,
Ernest Yonghc

ErnestYong · Answer

Dear Mr. Clive,

Please find below draft of a letter to the Star editor for your comments and correction.
*****

CORRECT GRAMMAR

I would like to refer to the articles on Errors in PMR English language grammar which appeared in the thestar.om.my dated 24.10.2010 by Mr. Lim, ( http://thestar.com.my/education/story.asp?file=/2010/10/24/education/7228724&sec=education http://thestar.com.my/education/story.asp?file=/2010/10/24/education/7228724&sec=education) and dated 31.10.2010 by Marisa Demori, (

http://thestar.com.my/education/story.asp?file=/2010/10/31/education/7293624&sec=education )

I am not a professor of English. However, my credentials as a self-appointed arbiter are 1.) string of distinctions in the English language from primary level in the 60s to tertiary level in the 70s, during which period English was used to teach most subjects, 2.) expertise in computing, 3.) experience in research work gained while working for 2 large multinational corporations for a decade.

In preparing this article, I have the advantage of receiving inputs from the Top 10 Power users, Experts and Contributors from an English language forum, . I would like to acknowledge assistance from Clive (Veteran, Power user, Expert, Top contributor) and AlpheccaStars (Power user, Expert, Top contributor) in particular.

I shall try to be grammatically correct. However, if I should err, kindly apprise me of my shortcomings and forgive me. Admitted, I will not be piqued if you choose to criticize me, after all my livelihood is not dependent on my English language proficiency, since I do not set English examination questions, am not an English language teacher or tutor. However, I do have a keen interest in the English language.

The sentences in dispute are as follows:

Q1. “Being a Penangite, it was indeed fun to go somewhere far as it would be a change from my normal routine…”

Correction:

“Being a Penangite, I had fun going somewhere far as it would be a change from my normal routine…”. It implies that, in some way, Penangites have fun when they travel to far-away places.

The word dangling in dangling modifier connotes uncertainty not inseparability. An example of dangling modifier,

Upon entering the doctor's office, a skeleton caught my attention.
(Was the skeleton entering the doctor's office?)

Score: Lim:1, Marisa:0

Q2. “Drop me off at a small town”

Correction:

“Drop me off in a small town”

“at” refers to a small place, “in”, a bigger place. You may say “Drop me off at the post office in a small town”.

“The intergalactic spaceship dropped me off at planet earth, a tiny speck in the cosmos”. The usage of “at” depends on the context.

Score: Lim:1, Marisa:0

Q3. “I went to enquire at the bus station”

Correction:

“I went to enquire about the bus schedule at the bus station”.

Object of enquiry needs to be incuded. British English defines enquire as “ask a question”, inquire as “formal investigation”. US English considers inquire as more dominant in usage than enquire; they may refer to both “ask a question” or “formal investigation”.

Score: Lim:1, Marisa:0

Q4. “I alighted where most buses stopped for passengers to get refreshments and stretch their legs.”

Correction:

“I alighted whenever the bus stopped for passengers to get refreshments and stretch their legs.”

“alighted” is not wrong. When “where” is used, the writer may have got off the bus and gone home. When “whenever” is used, the writer was in the bus after getting off at all rest stops. The writer might have intended to mention that the rest stops are places where most buses also stopped. If necessary, this may be included in the next sentence for clarity.

Score: Lim:0, Marisa:0

Q5. “enquire from.....”

Correction:

“enquire from... about”

“enquire from” is not wrong, but the object of enquiry is missing. You may say “I enquired from the corner of the room whether Napoleon was French.”

Score: Lim:0, Marisa:0

Q6. “... and was told to wait at a bus stop across the road. Hence, I waited eagerly…”

the word “Hence” is correctly used above. It can be used as follows:

He loved her. Hence, he married her. He loved her, and hence he married her. I will see you two days hence. He is dead, hence his absence.

Score: Lim:0, Marisa:1

Q7. "This will definitely be one experience that I will never forget!"

The above sentence is grammatically correct. Mr. Lim's correction is also correct. But Mr. Lim was wrong in saying that Marisa was wrong.

I agree with Clive's comments reproduced verbatim below:

Consider this simple example.

My house burns down. I am rescued by the firemen.

I can say various things, depending on how I am thinking about these events.

I say "That was definitely an experience that I will never forget!"

I'm thinking of the experience as finished.

I say "That will definitely be one experience that I will never forget!"

I'm forecasting how I will think about it in the future, eg once I have absorbed it fully into my mind.

I can also say "That is definitely be one experience that I will never forget!" I'm thinking of the experience as still part of the present situation, as still taking place.

Score: Lim:0, Marisa:1

Results: Lim: 43%, Marisa:29%

Kind regards,

Yonghc

2.11.2010

*****

Clive · Answer

Hi Mr. Yong,

I have been thinking about this matter.

I prefer not to become a featured part of a dispute that is being conducted in the pages of a public newpaper in a land that is far distant from me. I hope you understand.

I am, of course, happy to try to answer any questons you may have about matters of grammar. I'm sure many of the other people here will also be willing to assist you. However, please note that most of us do not have time to read links to background matters. It's also a good idea to keep your questions as short as possible. If a post is long and has many questions in it, it's possible that no-one may have time to deal with it. We are, after all, all unpaid volunteers.

We look forward to assisting you, and indeed everyone who is trying to learn English.

Clive

Markroe · Answer

CliveI can also say , "That is definitely be one experience that I will never forget!" I'm thinking of the experience as still part of the present situation, as still taking place.

The word "be" should be omitted in this sentence: "That is definitely one experience that I will never forget."

Dimsumexpress · Answer

This is my personal take. I have observed a subtle distinction between English used in different part of the world, particularly in journalistic reference and idiomatic usage.Take the verb " alight" for instance, I can't remember ever seeing or hearing this word used in the past 30 years living in the US. But "Alight" which has the equivalent meaning of "depart" or "exit" in the US, is used and heard a lot outside of the US, particularly in Asian countries during a subway trains arriving a station. At which time, an automated announcement will come on through the train speakers " Please alight from / on the left / right of the train".

Another observation is that the qualifications of English teachers who teach in other countries may not have meet the English speaking country standards, and therefore compromise the learning opportunity of the students.

Based on texts written, both seem to have missed certain elements in being able to form a complete thought in my opinions. So I'd take the liberty to revise them, just for kicks.

Q1. “Being a Penangite(,and rarely been anywhere) , it was indeed fun (for me) to go somewhere far as it would be a nice change from the normal routine…”. Here, "it" is a dummy noun which could be applied to "he", "she", they" , or "me".

Correction:

“Being a Penangite (,and rarely been anywhere), I had fun going somewhere far as it would be a nice change from the normal routine…”. It implies that, in some way, Penangites have fun when they travel to far-away places. That would be a 'yes'.

As far as the difference between 'enquire' and 'inquire', this may help:

http://www.english-for-students.com/Enquire-and-Inquire.html

What is the distinction between Enquire and Inquire?

The traditional distinction between enquire and inquire is that enquire is to be used for general senses of ask while inquire is reserved for uses meaning make a formal investigation. In practice, however, enquire (and enquiry) is more common in British English while inquire (and inquiry) is more common in US English, but otherwise there is little discernible distinction in the way the words are used.

Anonymous · Answer

Dear All,

Kindly provide feedback for the revised Q1 following dimsumexpress's comments.

Thanking you in advance.
regards,

Ernest yonghc

Q1. “Being a Penangite, it was indeed fun to go somewhere far as it would be a change from my normal routine…”

Grammatically, the above sentence may be correct. However, one may infer that a Penangite has rarely been anywhere or is not accustomed to travel, so it was fun for him or her to go somewhere far away as it would be a nice change from the normal route...”

“It” is a dummy noun which could be applied to “him” or “her”.

That sentence may be improved as follows:

“Being a Penangite, (and rarely been anywhere), it was indeed fun (for me) to go somewhere far (away) as it would be a (nice) change from (the) normal routine…”. It may not be accurate to attribute the lack of clarity to a dangling modifier. Some words may be missing, but they do not render the sentence ambiguous.

Alternatively the sentence may be reconstructed as follows:

“Being a Penangite, I had fun going somewhere far away as it would be a nice change from the normal routine…”. It implies that, in some way, Penangites have fun when they travel to far-away places.

The word dangling in dangling modifier connotes uncertainty not inseparability. An example of a sentence with dangling modifier:

Upon entering the doctor's office, a skeleton caught my attention.
(Was the skeleton entering the doctor's office?)

Score: Lim: 0, Marisa:1

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