Conditional, subjunctive, or indicative?

Question

I have a huge problem. If I had been in Obama's place, I would have tried to answer all the questions the crowd would have asked me.If I had been in Obama's place, I would have tried to answer all the questions the crowd asked me.Are both possible? Some (infamous) grammarians call that "tense simplification" after "would". I don't believe there's any simplification there, it's just two different moods: "would have asked" is conditional and is therefore related to the speculations on the consequences of some hypothetical "facts", and "asked" is subjunctive and therefore is part of those hypothetical "facts".What about this?If I had been in Obama's place, I would have tried to answer all the questions the crowd had asked me.I don't really like that one, but I have to include it because I'm not sure. Can you comment on these sentences and their meanings? Thank you.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

I am a great fan of tense simplification in dependent clauses, and teach it.  The two 'would's sound awkward at best, and the past perfect is overkill.

CalifJim · Answer

If I had been in Obama's place, I would have tried to answer all the questions the crowd would have asked me. (Eeuw! )
If I had been in Obama's place, I would have tried to answer all the questions the crowd asked me. OK.

......

If I had been in Obama's place, I would have tried to answer all the questions the crowd had asked me. (Not really eeuw, but not really very good either. -- )

I don't think I can explain my choices any better than that, as inarticulate as it may seem.

CJ

Kooyeen · Answer

Thanks!
But I'm not sure such simplifications are always possible. In fact, I'm pretty sure they are NOT always possible, but it might be difficult to know when and why.

I am certain that had the Chinese not been in the room, we would have left Copenhagen with a deal that had environmentalists popping champagne corks in every corner of the world.

What would you say about that sentence? Shouldn't it be "...with a deal that would have had environmentalists popping champagne corks"?
In short, my theory is this: in my previous examples it was ok to use a verb in the simple past tense form, because it was clear it referred to something hypothetical (no one asked any questions to me, I wasn't in Obama's place). But here it is NOT clear that the environmentalists popping corks are part of a hypothetical scenario. That verb form, "had", is not in a context where it could be considered in the subjunctive mood, and so it just sounds like it's in the indicative mood: a simple past tense. It sounds like the environmentalists did pop those corks. What do you think? Thanks.

Mister Micawber · Answer

Not to me, sorry.  The hypothesis is still clearly covered by the 'would have' in the main clause.

RayH · Answer

Kooyeen It sounds like the environmentalists did pop those corks. What do you think?

I didn't see it like that until I read your last sentence. Now I can but it doesn't really bother me and no I don't read it as meaning that they actually did pop the corks. I guess the previous "would have" is sufficient to make "had" acceptable. Still I don't think I would have found "would have had" (whew, that's a mouthful

) problematic had the original been so phrased.

CalifJim · Answer

I did not read the responses of others before deciding on this answer.

had is fine; would have had is awkward. The "would have"-ness carries through from would have left and is only an unnecessary distraction when repeated as would have had.

CJ

Kooyeen · Answer

I see, thanks!

Conditional, subjunctive, or indicative?

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