Conditional sentence

Question

hi: in "if he asked you, what would you say?", does the time reference indicate past, present or future? thank you.

Noctivagus · Accepted Answer

In a sense it references the future. "If he asked you" implies something that has not happened. It doesn't necessarily have to happen in the future, but it might. It might also just be a hypothetical idea (=an idea that you just develop in your mind, but that won't necessarily be true, so is kind of fictional).

Canadian45 · Answer

guzhao67hi: in "if he asked you, what would you say?", does the time reference indicate past, present or future? thank you.

Logically, in that sentence "asked" should refer to the past. While situations like that are uncommon, one can imagine a scenario it which that sentence refers to the past.

If you want the sentence to refer to the future, say "If he asks you, what (will)(would) you say?

Noctivagus · Answer

asked is the Simple past Form (or Past Participle Form) of "ask", this is certainly correct.

Within an if-clause stating a hypothetical situation the Past-FORMS are used, however there is no meaning to do with the past.

The sentence "If he asked you, what would you say?" does not refer to to anything that has or might have happened in the past, bur to a general hypothetical situation, that might happen in the future, or not at all, as I said before.

If you wanted to talk about hpotheticals in the past you would say "If he had (he'd) asked you, what would you have said?". In this case of course you have an Irrealis, a hypothetical situation in the past, that deviates from what actually happened.

Other European languages have a special mood of the verb, called Conditioanl Mood, that would be used in these cases. English lacks this particular mood, and uses the Past-FORMS instead.

As i understand it, Eastern Asian languages like Mandarin Chinese do not have Conditionals like if-clauses, and need to paraphrase these.

Dimsumexpress · Answer

Noctivagus "If he asked you" implies something that has not happened. It doesn't necessarily have to happen in the future, but it might.

I see it exactly the same way, with a minor difference. When I tried to go through the "Rolodex" in my head looking for the Q-card that said the "If he asked.."pattern is a past reference. I could find it. For an analytical, I see it this way. "If he asked, what would you say?" - In any context, "If" is a signal for a conditional context. The rest of the context should be based on the rules of the conditionals, and how the writer intends to express his thoughts. For the answer to the question above, it should be given in the 2nd condition rule, " I would say yes/ no".

But, if the question was asked after the event, then the context should have been a 3rd conditional.

Had he asked/ if he had asked me to go, I would have said yes.

The crazy conditionals ! And this may be helpful: http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verbs-conditional_4.htm

Canadian45 · Answer

Noctivagus"asked" is the Simple past Form (or Past Participle Form) of "ask"; this is certainly correct. Within an if-clause stating a hypothetical situation the Past-FORMS are used, however there is no meaning to do with the past. (my underlining) Does using "asked" there make a lot of sense when you can use "asks" instead?
As an aside, the above makes as little sense as backshifting verbs in reported speech and changing the meaning or making the meaning ambiguous. There is a much better alternative; stick with the appropriate tense.

The sentence "If he asked you, what would you say?" does not refer to to anything that has or might have happened in the past, bur to a general hypothetical situation, that might happen in the future, or not at all, as I said before. So the logical thing to say is 'If he asks....'.

If you wanted to talk about hpotheticals in the past you would say "If he had (he'd) asked you, what would you have said?". You would use that when you know that he didn't ask.

In this case of course you have an Irrealis, a hypothetical situation in the past, that deviates from what actually happened. Other European languages have a special mood of the verb, called Conditioanl Mood, that would be used in these cases. English lacks this particular mood, and uses the Past-FORMS instead. But one can also use the present tense, and actually mean what one says. As i understand it, Eastern Asian languages like Mandarin Chinese do not have Conditionals like if-clauses, and need to paraphrase these. Manadarin Chinese has "if" clauses, and one would think that all languages have a way of expressing the conditional.

Finally, what about the uncommonn but not impossible situation in which the person has already been asked but doesn't yet know that (s)he has been asked. That seems to be the appropriate situation in which to say 'If he asked you, what (will)(would) you say?'

Noctivagus · Answer

Noctivagus"asked" is the Simple past Form (or Past Participle Form) of "ask"; this is certainly correct. Within an if-clause stating a hypothetical situation the Past-FORMS are used, however there is no meaning to do with the past. (my underlining) Does using "asked" there make a lot of sense when you can use "asks" instead?
As an aside, the above makes as little sense as backshifting verbs in reported speech and changing the meaning or making the meaning ambiguous. There is a much better alternative; stick with the appropriate tense.

The sentence "If he asked you, what would you say?" does not refer to to anything that has or might have happened in the past, bur to a general hypothetical situation, that might happen in the future, or not at all, as I said before. So the logical thing to say is 'If he asks..'. No. I DO think there is a difference, and it depends on the situation. When you use if+present tense, as you suggest, this indicates that the speaker sees a very real possibility of something happening. Example from a grammar book: "I might go shopping later. If i go shopping, I will buy some apples."In this case, the will future is pretty much always used in the second clause. When talking about something you only imagine happening, if+past is used. "If i didn't go to their party, they would be upset". "Would" has to be used. Of course you could also say "If i don't go to their party, they will be upset", but to me this would sound like you definitely see "not going" as an option, whereas in the first case you would only be musing about it, but not actually thinking of doing it. The construction "if+present, would" is considered grammatically wrong. I realise that it may sound correct to a native's ears in certain situations, but I'm sure you's agree that "If I don't go to their party, they would be upset" sounds odd....

The "backshift" in reported speech is Standard English Grammar. In your everyday life you may perceive sentences like "She said that Tony is an idiot" as perfectly normal, and so do I sometimes, but they are not correct.

If you wanted to talk about hpotheticals in the past you would say "If he had (he'd) asked you, what would you have said?". You would use that when you know that he didn't ask. Yes exactly. That's what an Irrealis describes.

In this case of course you have an Irrealis, a hypothetical situation in the past, that deviates from what actually happened. Other European languages have a special mood of the verb, called Conditioanl Mood, that would be used in these cases. English lacks this particular mood, and uses the Past-FORMS instead. But one can also use the present tense, and actually mean what one says. As i showed above you cannot use Present Tense randomly to replace any Conditional. As i understand it, Eastern Asian languages like Mandarin Chinese do not have Conditionals like if-clauses, and need to paraphrase these. Manadarin Chinese has "if" clauses, and one would think that all languages have a way of expressing the conditional. I don't speak Chinese or any other Asian language, and maybe you know more about it than i do, but after quickly googling i found this on the first page that came up:

Great explanation Mencius!
In fact, as far as I can see it, Chinese uses modals such as the ones you mentioned or conjunctions and structures as the ones mentioned by GZ to express the possibility, impossibility or feasibility of a certain state or action. There seem to be no formal unambiguous structure to be used in this case.

Finally, what about the uncommonn but not impossible situation in which the person has already been asked but doesn't yet know that (s)he has been asked. That seems to be the appropriate situation in which to say 'If he asked you, what (will)(would) you say?' The use of "if" you are referring to here is a completely different one to that you would be discussing with an ESL learner anywhere within their first couple of years of learning the language.

As said before if+present,would is not permitted in a CONDITIONAL sentence. Using "if" along the lines of "So if you are only a cop in a costume, where the heck is the real Big Momma????" where if does NOT refer to an imagined situation or posibility, is part of the everyday useage of spoken language, and not reigned by the grammatical rules of the "conditionalizing if". I would consider it one of the subtleties that make English such a rich but hard to understand language, but are also irrelevant within a learner's Grammar.

Dimsumexpress · Answer

Noctivagus,

Very well defined and said! I completely agree. In deed, in Chinese the phrase, "if" (??) by itself is "conditionless". It depends on the timing and situation in which it is used to determine the exact conditional meaning. I speak both Putungqua and the Cantonese fluently. I see exactly what you meant, In Englsih, on the other hand, is much less forgiving, or should I say "much more strict" in the grammatical sense. If one is serious about correct grammar, then, the rules are the rules. I also agree that even poeple with good grammar can also be victimized by usage like the one you described." I'm sure you's agree that "If I don't go to their party, they would be upset" sounds odd." This mixed condition is very commonly used and heard among the natives. as such that the non-natives take it as coorect because of the false perpception that natives can't be wrong. Just thought I cast my two cents into the mix....

CalifJim · Answer

guzhao67hi: in "if he asked you, what would you say?", does the time reference indicate past, present or future? thank you.

The time reference is an imagined future. It's like saying "Suppose that he asks you at some point in the future. Then what do you say (after he asks)?" (In the general case for these structures - called "second conditionals" - the time reference can be either an imagined present or an imagined future.)

When the if-clause has the past tense and the main clause has would, the whole situation is regarded as imaginary. Nobody knows if it will ever happen. They are just speculating on it, as they might speculate on what it's like to be a billionaire, or what it's like to fall from a great height, or what it's like to live on the moon. These speculations are all expressed with an if-clause and a past tense:

If you were a billionaire, ... [ the result would be ....]

If someone fell from a great height, ... [ the result would be ....]

If I lived on the moon, ... [ the result would be ....]

Note that the imagined result is expressed in a clause with would.

CJ

Noctivagus · Answer

Finally, what about the uncommonn but not impossible situation in which the person has already been asked but doesn't yet know that (s)he has been asked. That seems to be the appropriate situation in which to say 'If he asked you, what (will)(would) you say?' The use of "if" you are referring to here is a completely different one to that you would be discussing with an ESL learner anywhere within their first couple of years of learning the language.

As said before if+present,would is not permitted in a CONDITIONAL sentence. Using "if" along the lines of "So if you are only a cop in a costume, where the heck is the real Big Momma??" where if does NOT refer to an imagined situation or posibility, is part of the everyday useage of spoken language, and not reigned by the grammatical rules of the "conditionalizing if". I would consider it one of the subtleties that make English such a rich but hard to understand language, but are also irrelevant within a learner's Grammar.

I also just realised that my "BIg Momma" quote does not mirror your idea.

If you wanted to be grammatically correct in this situation you would (in my opinion) have to use Present Perfect.

"If he has (he's) asked you, what will you do?" "Would" is again not correct here. I realize that Americans in particular will prefer the use of Simple Past.

Thank you for the comment on Chinese. I was pretty sure i had a reliable source.

Canadian45 · Answer

NoctivagusThe construction "if+present, would" is considered grammatically wrong. I realise that it may sound correct to a native's ears in certain situations, but I'm sure you's agree that "If I don't go to their party, they would be upset" sounds odd.. I don't agree, and it certainly sounds better than "you's agree".
That "would" is the conditional "would", not the past tense. (If that's what your objection is.)

Let's just say we disagree. I have been involved in long back-and forth-discussions on topics like this in the past, and my appetite for such discussions has considerably waned.

Conditional sentence

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