Conditional in substardad english

Question

Firstable sorry for my english, but I hope to explain in the most clearly way which are my doubts .
I'm italian and in my language there is a substandard (the purists call it "not grammatical") use of the conditional:
1) se avrei i soldi, comprerei una macchina 'If I *would have the money Iwould buy a car' (2° conditional)

2) Se avrei studiato di più, avrei passato l'esame. 'If I *would havestudied more, I would have passed the exam' (3° or counterfactual conditional)
Well, I'm asking you if the construction "If I would... I (will) would..." is considered substandard or not in English (or in AE). After having done a research on the net I found theese sentences:

"If I would be the boss of Chanel, I will ask you to be my testimonial.." from http://www.flickr.com/photos/agnieszka/sets/33413/comments/ "If I would be limited only to two albums, I would take none" from http://www.myriad-online.com/en/community/interview/ddraganov.htm

There is a forum site called "If I would be a moderator" http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=55434
Also this sentence sounds strange:
"He had asked if I would be available for full-time employment" http://www.mccannas.com/sketch/horror.htm
But the standard form is "if I had been", isn't it?

The funny thing is that this type of substandard use exists in italian, too (someone use the conditional form instead the subjunctive form). The issue, anyway, is a bit different because, unlike italian, english doesn't have the subjunctive.
Thanks in advance for your answers
G.

Usenet · Accepted Answer

Sorry I correct the spelling error in the topic :-)

"L'intronato" ha scritto nel messaggio

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]"If I would be the boss of Chanel, I will ask you to be my testimonial.."[/nq]
If I were the boss ... , I would ask
[nq:2]"If I would be limited only to two albums, I would take none" from[/nq]
If I were limited ...
[nq:2]There is a forum site called "If I would be a moderator"[/nq]
If I were a moderator ...
[nq:2]"He had asked if I would be available for full-time employment" But the standard form is "if I had been", isn't it?[/nq]
Your examples appear to be American, rather than English.

BS

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Firstable sorry for my english, but I hope to explain in the most clearly way which are my doubts .[/nq]
Much better than my Italian.
[nq:1]I'm italian and in my language there is a substandard (the purists call it "not grammatical") use of the conditional: ... *would have the money I would buy a car' (2° conditional) 2) Se avrei studiato di più, avrei passato l'esame.[/nq]
If I had the money...
Had I the money...
If I'd studied more, I'd have passed...
[nq:1]"If I would be the boss of Chanel, I will ask you to be my testimonial.." from / "If I would be limited only to two albums, I would take none" from http://www.myriad-online.com/en/community/interview/ddraganov.htm[/nq]
Note agnieszka, ddraganov... this is NOT an English usage at all.
[nq:1]Also this sentence sounds strange: "He had asked if I would be available for full-time employment" http://www.mccannas.com/sketch/horror.htm But the standard form is "if I had been", isn't it?[/nq]
That's a future conditional, it's OK. "If I had been.." places it in the past.
Paul Burke

Usenet · Answer

L'intronato schrieb:
[nq:1]Firstable sorry for my english, but I hope to explain in the most clearly way which are my doubts . ... albums, I would take none" from http://www.myriad-online.com/en/community/interview/ddraganov.htm There is a forum site called "If I would be a moderator" http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=55434[/nq]
All of these are non-standard in any variety of English.
[nq:1]Also this sentence sounds strange: "He had asked if I would be available for full-time employment" http://www.mccannas.com/sketch/horror.htm But the standard form is "if I had been", isn't it?[/nq]
"Will you be available for full-time employment?" The would occurs because of the time shift in indirect speech
[nq:1]The funny thing is that this type of substandard use exists in italian, too (someone use the conditional form instead the subjunctive form). The issue, anyway, is a bit different because, unlike italian, english doesn't have the subjunctive.[/nq]
This is not actually true. There are two subjunctive forms:
1. the present (or first) subjunctive - which is the same as the presentindicative except that the 3rd person singular does not add "s", e.g. "I suggest that he go to see a lawyer" - in British English the form "... that he should go ..." is more common. The present (or first) subjunctive of "to be" is "be", e.g. "I suggest that he be invited"
2. the past (or second) subjunctive - which now has the same form as thesimple past except for "to be", where the form is "were" for all persons. This is often used in conditional clauses: "If he were here, ..." or "If I were president, ..." Because of the identity of the forms (other than this one exception) we (teachers of English as a foreign language) usually don't refer to the subjunctive in this context except with very advanced students who are comparing English grammar with that of their own language. Why duplicate (and confuse the students with useless information)? - after all the forms are identical except for the one exception, and even there you can always use "was" except in the phrase "If I were you, ..."
Anyway, most native speakers of English have no idea what you are talking about when you mention the subjunctive, even if they use it themselves! ;-)
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
P.S. Don't worry about the typo in the subject line - typos happen all the time in Usenet.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]P.S. Don't worry about the typo in the subject line - typos happen all the time in Usenet.[/nq]
"Substardad" is a beautiful portmantoid(*) of "substandard" and "***".

Paul Burke
*(C) PB 2006

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Firstable sorry for my english, but I hope to explain in the most clearly way which are my doubts . ... se avrei i soldi, comprerei una macchina 'If I *would have the money I would buy a car' (2° conditional)[/nq]
In English we would say: "If I had the money, I would buy a car."
[nq:1]2) Se avrei studiato di più, avrei passato l'esame. 'If I *would have studied more, I would have passed the exam' (3° or counterfactual conditional)[/nq]
This would be: "If I had studied more, I would have passed the exam."

Don't get confused between the two uses of "had". In the first sentence it is the primary verb meaning to possess. In the second sentence, it is the auxiliary verb to the past participle of "study".
[nq:1]Well, I'm asking you if the construction "If I would... I (will) would..." is considered substandard or not in English (or in AE).[/nq]
In British English, we would not use "would" as an auxiliary in the first part of each sentence, but instead the subjunctive of the actual verb, as Einde has explained in his posting.
[nq:1]After having done a research on the net I found theese sentences: "If I would be the boss of Chanel, I will ask you to be my testimonial.." from /[/nq]
I'm not sure whether this is future tense or not. If it is talking about a hypothesised future, it would be:
"If I were to be(come) the boss of Chanel, I would ask you to be my testimonial."

If he is talking about a present fictitious scenario, it would be:

"If I were the boss of Chanel, I would ask you to be my testimonal."
[nq:1]"If I would be limited only to two albums, I would take none" from http://www.myriad-online.com/en/community/interview/ddraganov.htm[/nq]
If a fictitious scenario:
"If I were limited only to two albums, I would take none."

If a response to an actual limitation:
"If (=since) I am limited only to two albums, I will take none." (Not subjunctive).
[nq:1]There is a forum site called "If I would be a moderator" http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=55434[/nq]
"If I were a moderator..."
[nq:1]Also this sentence sounds strange: "He had asked if I would be available for full-time employment" http://www.mccannas.com/sketch/horror.htm But the standard form is "if I had been", isn't it?[/nq]
Interestingly, that example is the only one in your posting that is actually natural English.
[nq:1]The funny thing is that this type of substandard use exists in italian, too (someone use the conditional form instead the subjunctive form). The issue, anyway, is a bit different because, unlike italian, english doesn't have the subjunctive.[/nq]
It does indeed, although most native speakers don't realise it, because most forms are identical to the indicative. English doesn't distinguish between subjunctive and conditional.
I doubt the subjunctive is taught much at all nowadays. Even in the 1970s, I learnt more about English grammar in German lessons than in English lessons!

Cheers
Tony

Tony Mountifield
Work: (Email Removed) - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: (Email Removed) - http://tony.mountifield.org

Usenet · Answer

Thanks all for your answers. So theese sentences are non standard, but this usage, anyawy exsists. Is it possible that an English (British or American) native speaker says "If I would..."? Maybe the examples I found on the net are written by a non native speaker.
I didn't recognize that the third example I wrote was an indirect question (that's stupid!).
But two doubts remain about first subjunctive in english.
1) Is it used only in "that-clauses"?
2) Doesn't it have a precise temporal reference?

"I suggest that he go to see a lawyer"
"I suggested that he go to see a lawyer"
"Before he handed himself over to the police, I had suggested he go to see a lawyer" (in this case is "handed hslf over" a past subjunctive?)

g.
"Paul Burke" (Email Removed) ha scritto nel messaggio

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Thanks all for your answers. So theese sentences are non standard, but this usage, anyawy exsists. Is it possible that ... speaker says "If I would..."? Maybe the examples I found on the net are written by a non native speaker.[/nq]
The examples you found were wrong, for whatever reason. No native English or American speaker would say that.
[nq:1]But two doubts remain about first subjunctive in english. 1) Is it used only in "that-clauses"? 2) Doesn't it have ... police, I had suggested he go to see a lawyer" (in this case is "handed hslf over" a past subjunctive?)[/nq]
The only place the subjunctive is used in the phrase: "If I were you, then..." or "If I were to do something..." although more and more people are using "was" instead of "were" through ignorance.
The only other place I have knowingly seen the subjunctive used was in the (Wimbledon) Lawn Tennis Association rules for the game which used to say things like "If the ball hit the line" but their web site now points to the ITF rules which do not contain such archaisms.

Usenet · Answer

L'intronato schrieb:
[nq:1]But two doubts remain about first subjunctive in english. 1) Is it used only in "that-clauses"? 2) Doesn't it have ... police, I had suggested he go to see a lawyer" (in this case is "handed hslf over" a past subjunctive?)[/nq]
In modern English the present subjunctive is largely confined to suggestions - and those primarilöy in American usage or in very formal British usage. In the third sentence the "before" clause is in the simple past.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]If I were the boss ... , I would ask If I were limited ... If I were a moderator ...[/nq]
And all of these are in (what use to be called?) the subjunctive - we do have one!

Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man.

Conditional in substardad english

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