Compound Subjects and Verb Agreement

Question

I'm sure this question has been dealt with before, but I couldn't find any recent discussions on it, so I'll raise it again.

I'm an English educator in Taiwan, and I've encountered this question several times in my work.
Given the following sentences, which is correct:
1a. Neither his brothers nor he like chocolate.
1b. Neither his brothers nor he likes chocolate.
1c. Neither he nor his brothers likes chocolate.
1d. Neither he nor his brothers like chocolate.
2a. Do either his brothers or he like chocolate?
2b. Does either his brothers or he like chocolate? 2c. Do either he or his brothers like chocolate?
2d. Does either he or his brothers like chocolate?

3a. Neither of us like chocolate.
3b. Neither of us likes chocolate.
4a. I but not he like chocolate.
4b. I but not he likes chocolate.
5a. Either you or I am wrong.
5b. Either you or I are wrong.
5c. Either you are wrong or I am.
6a. Is he or his brothers wrong?
6b. Are he or his brothers wrong?
6c. Is his brothers or he wrong?
6d. Are his brothers or he wrong?
Most of the answers I've seen insist the verb should agree with the nearer or the two subjects. One source suggests the subjects should first be arranged so that, in the case of singular-plural combinations, the plural comes last and then the verb agrees with it, but that would seem to violate the usual compound subject ordering rules which want to put "he" last.
This whole "nearest subject" approach, however, strikes me as rather artificial, an imposition on the language by grammarians who can't stomach ambiguities. My question is, how recent is this proposed solution, and are there alternatives? In particular, this solution would lead to the rather awkward construct in 5a.
In addition, I was raised to say "Neither his brothers nor he likes chocolate", so "like" just sounds wrong to me.
I once saw a Usenet discussion which concluded, despite modern insistence on the "nearest subject" approach, the correct answer is there is no correct answer.
Thoughts, anyone?
Cal Culver,
Taiwan

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]I'm sure this question has been dealt with before, but I couldn't find any recent discussions on it, so I'll ... educator in Taiwan, and I've encountered this question several times in my work. Given the following sentences, which is correct:[/nq]
I'll try to give you what I'd say in speech without thinking, but I can't say for sure:
[nq:1]1a. Neither his brothers nor he like chocolate. 1b. Neither his brothers nor he likes chocolate.[/nq]
like
[nq:1]1c. Neither he nor his brothers likes chocolate. 1d. Neither he nor his brothers like chocolate.[/nq]
like
[nq:1]2a. Do either his brothers or he like chocolate? 2b. Does either his brothers or he like chocolate?[/nq]
Do
[nq:1]2c. Do either he or his brothers like chocolate? 2d. Does either he or his brothers like chocolate?[/nq]
Do
[nq:1]3a. Neither of us like chocolate. 3b. Neither of us likes chocolate.[/nq]
likes
[nq:1]4a. I but not he like chocolate. 4b. I but not he likes chocolate.[/nq]
like
[nq:1]5a. Either you or I am wrong. 5b. Either you or I are wrong.[/nq]
are
[nq:1]5c. Either you are wrong or I am.[/nq]
Unexceptionable
[nq:1]6a. Is he or his brothers wrong? 6b. Are he or his brothers wrong?[/nq]
Are
[nq:1]6c. Is his brothers or he wrong? 6d. Are his brothers or he wrong?[/nq]
Are
[nq:1]Most of the answers I've seen insist the verb should agree with the nearer or the two subjects. One source ... this proposed solution, and are there alternatives? In particular, this solution would lead to the rather awkward construct in 5a.[/nq]
I would most definitely write around practically all of these. They're awkward and contrived-sounding, and English just doesn't have the right paperwork for this permit. Sometimes in speech, though, you get a sentence underway and soon come to wish you'd started it differently, but you press on and Webster take the hindmost.
[nq:1]In addition, I was raised to say "Neither his brothers nor he likes chocolate", so "like" just sounds wrong to ... discussion which concluded, despite modern insistence on the "nearest subject" approach, the correct answer is there is no correct answer.[/nq]
That would be my position. Only a die-hard prescriptivist would attempt to formulate these constructions. Still, "neither" is singular, and I know it, so I'm surprised to see my answer "Neither his brothers nor he like chocolate." I would, however, say "Neither likes it," no compound subject.

Perchprism
(southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia)

Usenet · Answer

Dear Cal,
Merriam Webster's Dictionary of English Usage treats has detailed entries on both "neither" and "either".
Some points from the articles:
People have been writing on this since the eighteenth century, and there are an abundance of rules and conditions.
There are rules that grammarians have laid down about the order of the nouns: they usually recommend putting the plural noun second. Both singular verb and plural verb, when the subjects differ in number or person, are well-attested.
The concept of "notional agreement" (which I suppose means, "Are you thinking about the two grammatical subjects as a single subject?") was unknown to, or not accepted by, earlier grammarians. One of the forces that governs number of verb is the "principle of proximity" or "attraction". For instance, the normal singular number of "neither" when used as a pronoun "is most likely to be ignored when it is followed by of and a plural noun or pronoun, for then both notional agreement and the principle of proximity... pull in the direction of a plural verb".
If your notional agreement and principle of proximity instincts fail you and/or you need a rule to follow consistently, follow the nearest subject rule (but I don't think there are any stats for what majority practice is).
==
Regards,
VI
http://kenm.mydeardiary.com/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Still, "neither" is singular, and I know it, so I'm surprised to see my answer "Neither his brothers nor he like chocolate."[/nq]
I'm not sure, but I think our tendency is to treat them the same as compound subjects with "and", so that both "his brothers AND he" and "his brothers OR he" tend to be perceived as a plural subject, leading to "like" rather than "likes". I think that, like you, this would be my first tendency.
On the other hand, if I think before speaking (something my wife says I do all too little of), I would override my first impulse in favor of "likes", since "neither" is generally taken as 3rd-person singular. However, I think in that my instincts are confusing the pronominal "neither" with the conjunctive "neither ... nor", which many grammarians treat separately.
[nq:1]all of these ... (are) awkward and contrived-sounding..[/nq]
I agree they're not sentences likely to be uttered by most Americans, who would tend to opt, for example, for "None of them" in place of "Neither his brothers nor he". However, I'm dealing with an education system in Taiwan which places heavy emphasis on tests and nearly every authority here teaches the nearest-subject rule. Since questions like these are specifically and intentionally asked on tests, I can't simply tell my students to rework their sentences.

Thanks for the input. I think most of my first instincts agree with yours.
Cal Culver,
Taiwan

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]There are rules that grammarians have laid down about the order of the nouns: they usually recommend putting the plural noun second.[/nq]
But, as I mentioned, this contradicts the usual order of compound subjects, e.g., "My brothers and I" rather than "I and my brothers". Whom does it serve to have a whole different set of rules for "or"? Seems like a case of the cure being worse than the disease.
[nq:1]One of the forces that governs number of verb is the "principle of proximity" or "attraction".[/nq]
This strikes me as the one plausible defense of the nearest-subject rule. However, application of this "force" in other settings is specifically rejected, e.g., "None of my brothers like chocolate". But unfortunately I'm dealing with proscriptivists and a testing authority which for pragmatic reasons must be treated as infallible even when it's clearly wrong.
[nq:1]Both singular verb and plural verb, when the subjects differ in number or person, are well-attested. People have been writing on this since the eighteenth century, and there are an abundance of rules and conditions.[/nq]
This is what I'm looking for both specific data and alternative suggested rules and conditions. I don't have access to the Merriam-Webster's article. Can anyone point me to online sources on this issue? I'm looking especially for counter-examples to the nearest-subject rule. I'm pretty certain this is of recent origin, but I need data.
Cal Culver,
Taiwan

Usenet · Answer

The Columbia style guide has some very good pages on agreement and concord, starting here and going on for quite a few screens:

http://www.bartleby.com/68/40/240.html
They make clear, I think, that the "rule of proximity" or "notional agreement" are descriptive, not prescriptive. These concepts describe how actual speakers speak and write, namely: there is a very strong, almost irresistible tendency to make the number of the verb match the closest noun. This doesn't make it right* but it makes it very *common and almost always understandable and acceptable.
But being tested on grammar at a high level of schooling is one of the few places where you really must do things in the strange old-fashioned way instead of doing what feels good and popular.
[nq:2]Both singular verb and plural verb, when the subjects differ ... century, and there are an abundance of rules and conditions.[/nq]
[nq:1]This is what I'm looking for both specific data and alternative suggested rules and conditions. I don't have access ... looking especially for counter-examples to the nearest-subject rule. I'm pretty certain this is of recent origin, but I need data.[/nq]
To repeat: It's not a rule in the didactic "You should do this" sense. It's a rule in the sense that observers have noticed that this is what actually tends to happen.

Best Donna Richoux

Usenet · Answer

Thanks, Donna - this is something like what I was looking for. Very informative, and it does seem like it's trying to treat the issue in a descriptive sense.
However, my own experience and tendencies seem to contrast with some of Bartleby's examples, e.g.:
[nq:1]We concluded that the cause for all these robberies, killings, and other crimes are not known.[/nq]
This just feels wrong to me I'd go with "is" here, both on an instinctual level and as a grammarian.
[nq:1]Jane or is likely to do the job well[/nq]
My feeling is that most people, in conversational speech, would opt for "are" here, especially when "either" is thrown in, as in "Either or Jane are likely to do the job well."; this would only be flagged in written communication. I personally find this to be my first instinct; it's only the strict grammarian in me that prevents me from actually uttering it. Nevertheless, "are" actually feels more comfortable than "is".
So on the one hand, I suppose one could argue that the rule of proximity tends to call for agreement with the nearer subject; however, something else seems to be overriding it perhaps " or Jane" is perceived notionally as plural, despite either the grammatical call for the singular, or proximal agreement.
Thus, I would agree with Bartleby's example ...
[nq:1]Either a companion or several pets are necessary[/nq]
... in effect, but not in cause; I'd argue that "are" is not agreeing with the nearer subject, but with the perceived notionally plural compound subject "a companion or several pets". The fact that the second subject is plural is purely coincidental; the same result would obtain with conjoined singular subjects, as in the above " or Jane" example.
Thanks again for your reply. Quite interesting.
Cal Culver,
Taiwan

Usenet · Answer

(about http://www.bartleby.com/68/40/240.html and linked pages)
[nq:1]Thanks, Donna - this is something like what I was looking for. Very informative, and it does seem like it's trying to treat the issue in a descriptive sense. However, my own experience and tendencies seem to contrast with some of Bartleby's examples, e.g.:[/nq]
[nq:2]We concluded that the cause for all these robberies, killings, and other crimes are not known.[/nq]
[nq:1]This just feels wrong to me I'd go with "is" here, both on an instinctual level and as a grammarian.[/nq]
And if the compound seems notionally plural, even if grammatically singular, it will frequently take a
plural verb, especially at Conversational and
Informal levels: (snip example)
So they see this as "conversational and informal." Even if you yourself know better, you can expect to find this sort of construction at a conversational-informal level.
[nq:2]Jane or is likely to do the job well[/nq]
[nq:1]My feeling is that most people, in conversational speech, would opt for "are" here, especially when "either" is thrown in, ... the strict grammarian in me that prevents me from actually uttering it. Nevertheless, "are" actually feels more comfortable than "is".[/nq]
The Bartleby/Columbia page said (italics lost):
when a pronoun refers to a compound subject, the
grammatical plurality of and Jane will call for a plural pronoun such as they: and Jane are
punctual, and they will arrive on time. But with the compound or Jane, particularly if the pronoun is some distance away, the notion of plurality is
very likely to call forth a plural they, despite the grammatical call for a singular to match the
singular in gender: Jane or is likely to do the job well, and they can be counted on.
So they're really focussing on the pronoun agreement here, on why it often turns out to be they. The "singular they" is a frequent topic here; like verb agreement, pronoun agreement is another area of change and debate.
Back to the verb. I agree that "Jane or is" sounds unnatural and forced, and "are" is very tempting. In a conversational level, you are absolutely right. But is it OK to teach your students to that level?

Somewhere you have to decide to what standards you are teaching your students are they going to take examinations where passing or failing is going to depend on this sort of artificial minutia, or not. I imagine your time could be better spent elsewhere, except maybe pointing out these subtleties to your most gifted students.
[nq:1]So on the one hand, I suppose one could argue that the rule of proximity tends to call for agreement ... perhaps " or Jane" is perceived notionally as plural, despite either the grammatical call for the singular, or proximal agreement.[/nq]
Yes, I see it as something like that... Certain concepts (like or, and none) are often treated as plural even if strictly construed as singular. That's not the rule of proximity, which is about something else.
Checking what the site has to say bout "or" and compound subjects, I have no trouble with
A dog or a cat is good company.
Why is it that that feels different from this?
Jane or is likely to do a good job.
Maybe because for the first, it's very clear that it must be either a cat or a dog, not simultaneously (which might be unpleasant), but in the second, we want to add "or both"? Unless there is more of a build-up showing that EITHER Jane OR will get the job, it seems to be saying they are BOTH people who would do good jobs. Plural. Inclusive-Or (either or both) as opposed to exclusive-or (one or the other).
[nq:1]Thus, I would agree with Bartleby's example ...[/nq]
[nq:2]Either a companion or several pets are necessary[/nq]
[nq:1]... in effect, but not in cause; I'd argue that "are" is not agreeing with the nearer subject, but with ... is purely coincidental; the same result would obtain with conjoined singular subjects, as in the above " or Jane" example.[/nq]
What happens when you turn it around?
Either several pets or a companion (is/are) necessary.

A lot of this singular/plural stuff is tough*. I remember when I worked as an editor that I dreaded singular/plural problems, because there are times when *nothing sounds good. So please reassure your students that native speakers have trouble deciding what's best, too.
Best Donna Richoux

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Merriam Webster's Dictionary of English Usage treats has detailed entries on both "neither" and "either". Some points from the articles: People have been writing on this since the eighteenth century, and there are an abundance of rules and conditions.[/nq]
Google:
"are an abundance" yields 23,700 hits
"is an abundance" yields 203,000 hits
My Googling gives a clue to what I would have written.
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Compound Subjects and Verb Agreement

Top answer

Get the Weekly English Kit 📬

Related Questions