Comparatives and 'it'

Question

Hi,There are persons who cannot make friends. Who are they? Those who cannot be friends. It is not the want of understanding or good nature, of entertaining or useful qualities, that you complain of: on the contrary, they have probably many points of attraction; but they have one that neutralizes all these-they care nothing about you, and are neither the better nor worse for what you think of them. They manifest no joy at your approach; and when you leave them, it is with a feeling that they can do just as well without you. This is not sullenness, nor indifference, nor absence of mind; but they are intent solely on their own thoughts, and you are merely one of the subjects they exercise them upon. They live in society as in a solitude.Q1) What is the exact meaning of the underlined sentence in blue?  Does it mean something like this?  They are not better or worse than you think they are. At first, I thought of it as having a similar construction as "He is the taller of the twins", but then I realized that didn't quite fit the bill here because of the preposition 'for'.  Could someone break it down for me?Q2)  As for the second underlined sentence, what does 'it' refer to?  I would really appreciate it if someone could answer my questions. Thank you.

MalRey · Accepted Answer

jooneyQ1) What is the exact meaning of the underlined sentence in blue?

No matter what you think, the person in question is unaffected (is neither better nor worse as a result of your thoughts). In fact he doesn't care whether or not you have an opinion of him; he is utterly indifferent to you and your opinion.

jooneyQ2) As for the second underlined sentence, what does 'it' refer to?

As I understand it, in this context "it" is acting as a preparatory subject and doesn't really have any meaning in and of itself. With that I'll defer to the grammar experts for any comments they might have.

CalifJim · Answer

jooneyare neither the better nor worse for what you think of them.

(They) do not feel any better or any worse because of what you think of them.

jooneywhen you leave them, it is with a feeling that they can do just as well without you.

= when you leave them, you leave them with a feeling that they can do just as well without you.

it has no definite antecedent. The closest you can come is 'your leaving them'. But that isn't the real, underlying structure of the grammar anyway, in my opinion. You have here a modified cleft structure, and the it is the dummy it of any such structure. (If you do not already know about cleft sentences, you may need to learn about them before you fully understand the following discussion.)

Simplifying at first -

You leave them [with this feeling].

Changing the sentence above into a cleft structure with with this feeling as the highlighted element, we have

It is [with this feeling] that you leave them.

________

Expanding this to incorporate all the material in the original sentence -

You leave them [with a feeling that they can do just as well without you].

This becomes, as a cleft structure,

It is [with a feeling that they can do just as well without you] that you leave them.

_________

Adding the introductory clause when you leave them:

When you leave them, it is [with a feeling that they can do just as well without you] that you leave them.

_________

But now that the idea of 'you leave them' comes in the introductory clause, it is no longer necessary to repeat it at the end. In fact, it sounds clumsy to repeat it at the end. So, removing the repetitious final clause gives:

When you leave them, it is with a feeling that they can do just as well without you.

CJ

Jooney · Answer

Thank you very much for your answers, Malrey  I appreciate it.<img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

Jooney · Answer

Hi CJ,

Thank you so much for your great explanations!

A cleft sentence was the first thing that came to my mind when I looked at it, but I wasn't really sure of it because some part was missing.

Anyway I have a question about the first sentence.

They are neither the better nor worse for what you think of them. Why is the underlined part of the sentence translated as follows?

=They do not feel any better or worse...

And what do you need a definite article 'the' for?

Jooney · Answer

One final question.  Do you see 'what you think of them' as an indirect question or a fused relative?

CalifJim · Answer

jooneyDo you see 'what you think of them' as an indirect question or a fused relative?

Fused relative.

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

they care nothing about you, and are neither the better nor worse for what you think of them.

jooneyThey are neither the better nor worse for what you think of them. Why is the underlined part of the sentence translated as follows?
=They do not feel any better or worse...

That's just my quick and unthinking response to the task of 'translating' the expression. It may not be as accurate as it could be. I was trying to capture the idea that other people's opinions of them did not affect them in any way, whether to make them feel better (full of pride because of the good opinions of others) or to make them feel worse (full of shame because of the bad opinions of others).

jooneyAnd what do you need a definite article 'the' for?

Ah, yes. That. I'm afraid it's one of those inexplicable idioms of English. I'm surprised the author didn't write ... neither the better nor the worse ..., as a matter of fact, because both better and worse can take the definite article, though they don't have to. You can have ... neither better nor worse ....

By the way, another way this can be expressed, though it is in a lower register (i.e., closer to slang), is ... neither better off nor worse off .... A related expression is none the worse for wear, as in something like The child was eventually rescued from the burning building, none the worse for wear, i.e., unexpectedly unharmed.

CJ

Jooney · Answer

Thank you very much for the reply.

I have one last question before I'm done with this thread. Would you answer it?

"what you think of them"

Any chance that this can be an interrogative content clause?

They are not better off or worse off because of the answer to the question of "What do you think of them?".

Why is this line of thinking wrong?

Comparatives and 'it'

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