Commas and Conjunctions

Question

0 Hello, this is my first post here. I am a grammar enthusiast and wonder if there is a consensus about when it is proper to use commas before conjunctions. I recently read that commas should be avoided if two independent clauses are separated by a conjunction (note that the rule doesn't apply to dependent clauses, where commas are necessary). However, I am fond of using commas in some situations that are in opposition to this rule. For example, suppose we have the following sentences: 02br02br00"I have a jacket but it doesn't keep me warm." 02br00"I have a jacket, but it doesn't keep me warm." 02br02br00"I have a jacket and it keeps me warm." 02br00"I have a jacket, and it keeps me warm." 02br02br00The two sentences without commas satisfy this rule but they do not necessarily have better flow. It seems to me that a comma before the 01i00but02i00 provides the sentence with better flow, regardless of the fact that 01i00but02i00 separates two independent clauses. However, a comma does not seem appropriate before the 01i00and02i00. Has anyone heard of this rule? What are your feelings about it? Does it have merit or is it better to play commas by ear? 0-

Abbie1948 · Accepted Answer

0 Hi Chunes, and welcome to the forum. 02br
01blockquote

00a comma does not seem appropriate before the and. 12blockquote

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00You pose an interesting question which may provoke some debate! This is known as the "Oxford comma" 02br
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00from 05000 02br
01blockquote

00What is the 'Oxford comma'? 12br
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10The 'Oxford comma' is an optional comma before the word 'and' at the end of a list: 12br
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10We sell books, videos, and magazines. 12br
10It is so called because it was traditionally used by printer's readers and editors at Oxford University Press. Sometimes it can be necessary for clarity when the items in the list are not single words: 12br
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10These items are available in black and white, red and yellow, and blue and green. 12br
10Some people do not realize that the Oxford comma is acceptable, possibly because they were brought up with the supposed rule 11b10(which Fowler would call a 'superstition')12b10 about putting punctuation marks before and.12blockquote

1250hrefhttp://www.askoxford

Mister Micawber · Answer

0Ah, welcome to English Forums, Chunes-- a grammarian after my own heart! I agree that the flow's the thing in many comma considerations. I often present it as a function of clause length and complexity: the longer and more convoluted clauses require commas, where the simpler ones do not. It's a matter of clarity vs clutter, to my mind. 02br
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00And there is no consensus, fortunately, so we can do as we please. For instance, in contradistinction to what you recently read, Purdue University advises: 02br
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00"The comma is a valuable, useful punctuation device because it separates the structural elements of sentences into manageable segments. The rules provided here are those found in traditional handbooks; however, in certain rhetorical contexts and for specific purposes, these rules may be broken. 02br
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001. Use commas to separate independent clauses when they are joined by any of these seven coordinating conjunctions: and, but, for, or, nor, so, yet." 02br
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00(But I have never run across different approaches to 'and' and 'but'.) 0-

Mister Micawber · Answer

0... And thanks for the new vocabulary, Abbie.  'Oxford comma', eh?  I'll wow 'em with that 'un down at the pub later. 0-

Abbie1948 · Answer

0 01blockquote

00'Oxford comma', eh? I'll wow 'em with that 'un down at the pub later.12blockquote

12br
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00With a bit of luck, you'll be able to eat out on for weeks! 0-

Chunes · Answer

0 I think this is a different beast than the Oxford comma, because these examples aren't lists. 02br
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00The example I've seen for the Oxford comma is this book dedication: 02br
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00"To my parents, Ayn Rand and ***." 02br
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00Without the comma after Ayn Rand, it would seem that the author's parents are Ayn Rand and ***. With the comma, it is apparent that it is merely a list with three entries. Thanks for all your replies. 0-

Anonymous · Answer

That's not an Oxford comma. An Oxford comma refers specifically to  items in a series not when using a conjunction and two subjects.

MrPedantic · Answer

The last commas in each of these examples are Oxford commas:

1. Eat, drink, and be merry.

2. Wine, women, and song.

3. Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Berlioz, Butterworth, Bartók, Boulez, and Bliss.

I'm inclined to put a comma (or semi-colon) before an ordinary 'and' or 'but' when I want a slightly longer pause:

4. I want a slightly longer pause and I want it now!

5. I want a slightly longer pause; but not too long, you understand.

6. I want a slightly longer pause, and I would also quite like another coffee, if that's not too much trouble.

MrP

Forbes · Answer

Chunes"To my parents, Ayn Rand and ***."

Without the comma after Ayn Rand, it would seem that the author's parents are Ayn Rand and ***. With the comma, it is apparent that it is merely a list with three entries. Thanks for all your replies.

Even with the comma this still reads to me as if Ayn Rand and *** are the author's parents. Imagine if this were continued: To my parents, Ayn Rand and ***, who have helped me. There, it reads (at least to me) as if Ayn Rand and *** is in apposition to my parents.

If you want the dedicatees in that order better is: To my parents; Ayn Rand; and ***.

Otherwise: To Ayn Rand, *** and my parents avoids the specific from being included in the generic.

In longer lists semi-colons are sometimes essential. Compare:

We were accompanied by Mrs Clarke, the vicar's wife, my sister-in-law, May Smith, the butcher's wife, the local teacher, my sister, Elizabeth Jones, Mrs Brown, Lotte Schmitt, the German lady, Mrs Green and Lucy Williams.

We were accompanied by Mrs Clarke, the vicar's wife; my sister-in-law; May Smith; the butcher's wife; the local teacher, my sister, Elizabeth Jones; Mrs Brown; Lotte Schmitt; the German lady, Mrs Green; and Lucy Williams.

Anonymous · Answer

Greetings:

I'm an editor of English literature and grammar textbooks. Here's the standard rule: If a compound sentence has two independent clauses joined by a coordinating conjuction (and, but, or or), use a comma between the clauses. I don't know what resources you've consulted, but I've never come across any reliable handbook or style guide that says otherwise.

Couchman · Answer

"I recently read that commas should be avoided if two independent clauses are separated by a conjunction."

That is correct, as far as I am aware. (The "Oxford" comma is a matter of choice. It only applies when there is a list of three or more items.)

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