Comma usage

Question

She had previously published an article entitled "The Psychoanalytical Approach to the Masculine and Feminine Principles in Music," and was for many years head music therapist at the Langley Porter Clinic in San Francisco.
OR:
She had previously published an article entitled "The Psychoanalytical Approach to the Masculine and Feminine Principles in Music" and was for many years head music therapist at the Langley Porter Clinic in San Francisco.
(reference is in the text as a footnote but I've left it out here)

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi,

A comma represents a pause in speaking.

Let me ask you this.

If you paused after saying 'music', would that pause help the listener to understand the sentence better?

What do you think?

Best wishes, Clive

Beardog · Answer

Hi Clive,
But I'm always being told (in books about punctuation and by copy editors) that we should forget all about this idea of putting a comma where we would pause in speaking. This is why I'm hopelessly confused!
Beardog

Clive · Answer

Hi,

I find that surprising.

However, I know that rules for comma usage are often taught as if the comma has absolutely no relationship to speaking at all. In turn, that seems to cause some learners a lot of difficulty. This is why I've recently been trying to explain commas by discussing speaking.

I guess, really, you need to choose the way that works best for you. But it might at least be informative for you if you think about why you might want to pause briefly, or not pause briefly, in speaking.

eg Often, it is to let the listener think about what you have just said.

eg Often, it is to help the listener to understand a long sentence you are saying by breaking it into parts, each of which has some reasonably coherent meaning.

I admit that it is not always easy for a learner to figure out when a pause is appropriate, and perhaps that is what your books and editors are trying to tell you. But I think it's a useful exercise to try.

Clive

CalifJim · Answer

beardogShe had previously published an article entitled "The Psychoanalytical Approach to the Masculine and Feminine Principles in Music," and was for many years head music therapist at the Langley Porter Clinic in San Francisco.
OR:
She had previously published an article entitled "The Psychoanalytical Approach to the Masculine and Feminine Principles in Music" and was for many years head music therapist at the Langley Porter Clinic in San Francisco.

You don't need a comma in this sentence. You don't have another subject after "and". Here's the rule I learned.

She published an article and was head music therapist.
She published an article, and she was head music therapist.

Likewise,

Bob finished the first part but skipped the second.
Bob understood the first part, but Larry didn't.

Anna bought the book and read it.
Anna bought the book, and she read it as soon as she got home.

CJ

Beardog · Answer

Thanks for that!

We are now at the heart of my problem! I know this rule, but it seems to contradict the other philosophy, that Clive has been reiterating. This is a long sentence without the comma, and when reading it one needs a pause of some sort. I think it sounds redundant to put in the 'she' again. So, I would prefer to use the comma for the pause, but I know that technically it's incorrect. Or, could one simply justify this by saying that the second use of 'she' is implied?

Thanks for any more reflections on this.

CalifJim · Answer

beardogI would prefer to use the comma for the pause

Then use it. Nobody's going to put you in grammar jail!

beardogcould one simply justify this by saying that the second use of 'she' is implied?

In cases like this you probably ought to trust your own judgment rather than trying to justify your choice with convoluted reasoning.

CJ

Beardog · Answer

Yes, I know. But I have a copyeditor who thinks of commas as either 'right' or 'wrong'!  I think that has traumatized me a bit!  But you also say there is a clear rule for this, and what I'm confused about, is whether we should put in commas for pauses as we would speak, or ignore that and just 'follow the rules'.  <img class='emoticon' style='Width:19px;Height:19px;' data-delaysrc='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' src='https://uat-englishforward-forums-backend.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Emoticons/1.gif' alt='Emotion: smile'/>

CalifJim · Answer

beardogI have a copyeditor

Then your problem is solved. Just go along with his or her suggestions. I don't see the point in arguing with the copy editor. Why borrow trouble?

CJ

CalifJim · Answer

beardogwhether we should put in commas for pauses as we would speak

I know a few people who would never use commas. They never pause. You can't shut them up!

CJ

Clive · Answer

Hi,

Much depends on the level of your English, and on how much you trust your own judgement.

And on whether your copy editor is your boss.

Clive

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