Comma usage

Question

I understand that commas must precede conjunctions like: He went to see her, but they didn't allow him to. (here, two independent clauses are connected by a conjunction, so you simply place the comma before the conjunction)

But what of slightly more complicated sentences like: He went to see her, but once he got there, they made him wait. (OR) He went to see her, but, once he got there, they made him wait. (OR) He went to see her but, once he got there, they made him wait.

In the above, unlike the first example, there are three clauses - two independent clauses (he went to see her & they made him wait), and one dependent clause in the middle (but once he got there). Accordingly, there are three ways in which you can place the comma, unlike the first example where there is only one way, which is to place the comma just before the conjunction. How to determine which one is correct in this instance where you have not two but three clauses?

Regards,
Alfa

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi,

Remember that commas represent pauses in speaking. Thus, the question is 'Where would you naturally pause in saying this?' I realize this is not an easy queston for English learners.

I understand that commas must precede conjunctions like: He went to see her, but they didn't allow him to. (here, two independent clauses are connected by a conjunction, so you simply place the comma before the conjunction) I wouldn't say 'must'. They can, if you witsh to pause, but we often don't if both clauses are short and easy to understand. The idea of paising after the first clause is to give the listener time to think about what it means. If it's short, this is not absolutely necessary.

But what of slightly more complicated sentences like: He went to see her, but once he got there, they made him wait. (OR) He went to see her, but, once he got there, they made him wait. (OR) He went to see her but, once he got there, they made him wait.

I wouldn't pause in the way indicated in the first of the three above examples.

The last two of the above represent to me reasonable places to pause. I'd also accept

He went to see her, but once he got there they made him wait.

In fact, I prefer this.

In the above, unlike the first example, there are three clauses - two independent clauses (he went to see her & they made him wait), and one dependent clause in the middle (but once he got there). Accordingly, there are three ways in which you can place the comma, unlike the first example where there is only one way, which is to place the comma just before the conjunction. How to determine which one is correct in this instance where you have not two but three clauses?

As I said, decide where you would like to pause. Pauses are to help the listener understand what you are saying.

Clive

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks, Clive, for the detailed explanation.

CliveI wouldn't pause in the way indicated in the first of the three above examples.
The last two of the above represent to me reasonable places to pause

Will the same method work in sentences where the middle clause is either too short or too long? For instance: He preferred a compromise, but, even so, they refused to listen. (here 'but even so' is too short). Another instance: He went there to meet his enemies, and, when he saw them face to face, he flinched. (here, 'and when he saw them face to face' is rather long).

In both cases, however, I've used the commas in the exact same manner. Is that right? Or, must we make adjustments depending on how short or long the middle clause is?

Clive · Answer

Hi,

Will the same method work in sentences where the middle clause is either too short or too long? For instance: He preferred a compromise, but, even so, they refused to listen. (here 'but even so' is too short). Another instance: He went there to meet his enemies, and, when he saw them face to face, he flinched. (here, 'and when he saw them face to face' is rather long).

In both cases, however, I've used the commas in the exact same manner. Is that right? Or, must we make adjustments depending on how short or long the middle clause is?

He preferred a compromise, but, even so, they refused to listen.

This isn't wrong.

Very, very generally speaking, I would say that a tendency in written English today is, where possible, to avoid having a lot of commas. They are seen as adding 'clutter' to the sentence.

Other possibilities include these.

He preferred a compromise, but even so they refused to listen.

He preferred a compromise but, even so, they refused to listen.

The former is fine, but the latter gives more emphasis to the thought behind 'even so'.

He went there to meet his enemies, and, when he saw them face to face, he flinched.

This isn't wrong.

Once again, other possibilities include these.

He went there to meet his enemies,and when he saw them face to face he flinched.

He went there to meet his enemies and, when he saw them face to face, he flinched.

But your suggestion is right. Length does matter. Consider this example.

He went there to meet his enemies and, when he saw them in battle formation wearing their armour of brightly polished steel, he flinched.

The underlined thought is now clearly so long that the listener needs pauses to grasp it in his mind.

Clive

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks again, Clive. I think I'll go with the second method - it avoids too many commas, but also gets the pause right.

One other thing, if you don't mind. What of those rare sentences where you get two conjunctions successively? Such as: He wanted to go, and since the tickets were available right away, he had no second thoughts. (1) He wanted to go and, since the tickets were available...(2) He wanted to go, and, since the tickets were...(3)

I know in the previous examples, you said (2) and (3) were better. But I am wondering whether (1) is correct in this case because following the conjunction (and) is another conjunction (since) rather than an adverbial clause, as in previous examples. Am I right?

Clive · Answer

Hi again,

One other thing, if you don't mind. What of those rare sentences where you get two conjunctions successively? Such as:

He wanted to go, and since the tickets were available right away, he had no second thoughts.

(1) He wanted to go and, since the tickets were available...

(2) He wanted to go, and, since the tickets were...(3)

I know in the previous examples, you said (2) and (3) were better. But I am wondering whether (1) is correct in this case because following the conjunction (and) is another conjunction (since) rather than an adverbial clause, as in previous examples. Am I right?

He wanted to go, and since the tickets were available right away, he had no second thoughts.

I wouldn't say the above is incorrect, because my ear tells me that it could be said that way.

However, I prefer this.

He wanted to go and, since the tickets were available right away, he had no second thoughts.

Clive

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