Comma before but/and in THAT sentence construction

Question

Hi,I am confused.  Which of the sentences are correct?He stated that the building is tall and that the airplane is long.He stated that the building is tall, and that the airplane is long.He stated that the building is tall but that the building is badly designed.He stated that the building is tall, but that the building is badly designed.I am thinking the two sentences without the comma are correct because the second clause is not a complete one.But many sources, including New Yorker, have used a comma in such sentence structures...Please help!  Thanks.

BillJ · Accepted Answer

The traditional rule with 'and' is that you should use a comma if the subject in the second clause is different from that in the first clause, but you should not use one if the second clause uses the same subject (usually not repeated). So, in your sentences where the subject (he) is the same, it's wisest not to use a comma.

However, with the conjunction 'but', a comma is required.

In each of your sentences the second clause is complete (for analysis/punctuation purposes). Although the subject ('he') and the verb ('stated') are omitted, they are what are known as 'ellipted', (left out to avoid repetition). Once the ellipsis is 'filled out' each one can stand as a main clause. That's why the punctuation is the same as if the clause was written 'in full'.

BillJ

Nacholibre · Answer

I am still unclear as to why "and" and "but" constructions are different if we are assuming that "he stated" is omitted.

I found the following:

Charlie must learn that eating all those sweets may give him a temporary pleasure but that it's not good for his heart and that he would feel better about himself if he stopped eating all those rich and sweet foods that are not good for him.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/quizzes/indep_clause_quiz.htm

The site specifies that the sentence above is correct without any comma. It states that the only independent clause is "charlie must learn" and that the rest is all a dependent clause...

Can you elaborate?

Thanks for the quick response.

BillJ · Answer

The point I was making is that the traditional punctuation rules for conjunctions separating main clauses like that hold true, whether or not there is some ellipsis in the second clause.

BillJ

Nacholibre · Answer

Are you saying that it would be ok whether or not there is a comma?

Or are you saying that there must be a comma in the "but" construction?

I am very confused because I have always written sentences without a comma in such situations. But recently, I noticed taht NYT/New Yorker articles have both used/not used a comma in their sentences (don't they have an internal style guidline?)...

And that link I provided was the only grammar site that seemed to directly address this issue. But because it was only ONE source, I am still in doubt...

BillJ · Answer

What I meant was that using a comma with 'but' is traditional - sorry if I didn't make that clear. The conjunction 'but', when used to introduce a clause, typically signals a contrast or opposite fact, so a short pause can be seen as helping the reader to distinguish between the elements on each side of it. I suspect that's the reason a comma before 'but' is described by some grammars as traditional.

Nevertheless, for some writers it's all about style; in other situations, avoiding ambiguity may be the priority. I've noticed that some always omit them, whilst others use a comma with 'but', though not with 'and'. You too have picked up on this inconsistency, which is causing your confusion: that's why I thought it safest to reply with the 'traditional' usage where generally you can't go too far wrong.

The point I was making about your second clauses was that, whether you view them as subordinate (you referred to them as 'not complete') or main, the punctuation 'rule' is the same.

BillJ

Nacholibre · Answer

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Yes, I always use a comma before "but" when separating two clearly independent clauses, but with this sentence structure, I have always used without.

So...are you saying that it is OK to use or not use a comma..or...are you saying that I MUST use a comma under the rules of grammar?

Sorry to keep asking the seemingly same question, but I am having some difficulty understanding your reply.

Thanks.

BillJ · Answer

If you adhere to traditional rules, then yes, you should use a comma before 'but' where it separates clauses (of either type).

As I said before, I rather suspect the reason is that although the conjunction 'but' in itself signals contrasting or opposite notions, some further help from punctuation in the form of a comma serves to add a little 'ballast' to that function.

BillJ

Anonymous · Answer

Spot-on prescriptive grammar recommendations. I only take issue with your spelling, declension, and conjugation of the term "elide". "Ellipsis" does have the same root, but varies in spelling from the grammatical term for a stylistic omission.

BillJAlthough the subject ('he') and the verb ('stated') are omitted, they are what are known as 'elided', (left out to avoid repetition). Once the elision is 'filled out' each one can stand as a main clause.

Regards,

The Grammar Police Grammar Police

CalifJim · Answer

It would be well to remember the ultimate purpose of commas.

"Effective use of the comma involves good judgment, with ease of reading the end in view."
http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/Commas/Commas20.html

_____________

My random search on the internet shows the comma is not often used in the case of and that.

They verified that she was deaf and that she would require an interpreter.
He hints that other people think of him that way and that he has doubts.
His desire is that none should perish and that all should come to repentance.
The Soros Theory of Reflexivity says that perceptions influenced prices and that prices influenced fundamentals.
Hogue always maintained that he was innocent and that the man who had testified against him was the actual killer.
I would love to find something that fits and that I'm good at.
That doesn’t mean that they’re interchangeable and that there’s no reason to choose the BMW over the Yugo.

But sometimes it happens.

I'll take for granted that you didn't mean it that way, and that I'm just being overly sensitive about it.

On the other hand, the comma often occurs with but that.

It's not that it's totally repulsive, but that it's kind of delicious.
Imagine that reform passes, but that premiums shoot up.
I am not so much concerned that Christians outlaw abortion, but that more people have a spiritual outlook that places a greater value on the life of an unborn child.

But also without the comma.

Farley agreed that it wasn't very believable but that he sang well.
His attack on them is not that they are Jewish but that they are too rich and too powerful.
27% of Americans believe that humans evolved but that *** guided the process.
________

It seems to me that the factors which should influence the choice are the length of the clauses, particularly the first one, the amount of contrast, and how much parallelism exists between the two. I think the shorter the first that clause, the less necessary the comma. And the more contrast, the more necessary the comma. I further think the more parallelism there is between the clauses, the less necessary the comma. It's more a matter of art than of science.

CJ

Anonymous · Answer

He stated that the building is tall and that the airplane is long.
He stated that the building is tall, and that the airplane is long.

Are the clauses so long that we need to stop to take a breath between them?
Nope. No comma.

Are the clauses so long that we're not sure where one clause ends and the next begins?
Nope. No comma.

(BTW, ditch the second that. It's unnecessary and repetitive.)

He stated that the building is tall but that the building is badly designed.
He stated that the building is tall, but that the building is badly designed.

First, we have three clauses here.
He stated
the building is tall
the building is badly designed

Any clause is, by my definition, complete, ie it has a subject and a verb.
If it doesn't have a subject and a verb, it's a phrase.
(There may be other interpretations. I don' agree with them.)

So I'm not seeing what you're saying when you say the second clause is not complete.
Do you mean dependent?

In any event, it's a moot point cuz no one would ever use these sentences in real life.

Nobody's gonna repeat the subject and verb. See above. Unnecessary and repetitive.

That leaves us with
He stated that the building is tall and badly designed.

Okay grammatically and punctuationally, but still a lousy sentence.

Why?

The ideas are not comparable.

You might say "The building is well-built, but badly designed" or you might say "The building is tall but narrow."

"The building is tall but badly designed." Probably not.

Get yourself a copy of the Chicago Manual of Style. That's what they want you to use in graduate school.

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