clauses of manner

Question

Hi, I´d be greatful if you could help me with this.

In clauses of manner we use the present tense in real situations and the past tense in unreal situations.

She looks as if she is ill. (It is possible she is ill.)
She behaves as if she was/were the boss. (She is not the boss.)

If the main sentence is in the past, the present in the clause of manner changes to the past. Does the past in the unreal clause of manner remain in the past or does it change to the past perfect? (I think it remains the same.)

She looked as if she was ill. (Maybe she was ill.)
She behaved as if she .............
a) was/were the boss.
b) had been the boss.
(She was not the boss.)
In my opinion a) is correct.

Thanks.

GPY · Accepted Answer

radovanIn my opinion a) is correct.

I agree. With "as if", the past perfect would refer to something that happened prior to the time of "looked", "behaved", etc., not concurrently with that time. E.g.: "She looked as if she had seen a ghost."

Margarita McElroy · Answer

I'm a bit hesitant to post as I've only recently joined, but I wonder if this Wikipedia article on the use of the subjunctive in English might be of use?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_subjunctive
It begins:

The subjunctive in English is used to form sentences that do not describe known objective facts. These include statements about one's state of mind, such as opinion, belief, purpose, intention, or desire. It contrasts with the indicative mood, which is used for statements of fact, such as He speaks English.

In Modern English, the subjunctive form of a verb often looks identical to the indicative form, and thus subjunctives are not a very visible grammatical feature of English. For most verbs, the only distinct subjunctive form is found in the third person singular of the present tense, where the subjunctive lacks the -s ending: It is necessary that he see a doctor (contrasted with the indicative he sees). However, the verb be has not only a distinct present subjunctive (be, as in I suggest that he be removed) but also a past subjunctive were (as in If he were rich, …).

These two tenses of the subjunctive have no particular connection in meaning with present and past time. Terminology varies; sometimes what is called the present subjunctive here is referred to simply as the subjunctive, and the form were may be treated just as an alternative irrealis form of was rather than a past subjunctive.

CalifJim · Answer

radovanas if

After "as if" just about any tense can be used.

It is a little futile to argue over "real" and "unreal" cases because "as if" is by its very nature a comparison to something unreal, i.e., a state that doesn't exist or an action that has not happened. I don't know what a "real as if" could be.

radovanIf the main sentence is in the past, the present in the clause of manner changes to the past. Does the past in the unreal clause of manner remain in the past or does it change to the past perfect?

General rule: If the main clause is in the past, the 'as if' clause has the past tense of a stative verb or the past perfect tense of a dynamic ("eventive") verb.

She acted as if he was/were the most intelligent man in the room. (be - stative)
She acted as if he had a lot of money to spend on her. (had - stative)
She reacted as if he had slapped her in the face. (slap - dynamic)
She reacted as if he had given her the moon. (give - dynamic)

Caution: Just because there is a general rule doesn't mean every sentence in English conforms to it.

CJ

GPY · Answer

CalifJimIt is a little futile to argue over "real" and "unreal" cases because "as if" is by its very nature a comparison to something unreal, i.e., a state that doesn't exist or an action that has not happened. I don't know what a "real as if" could be.

I think the distinction was between counterfactual and non-counterfactual.

Anonymous · Answer

radovanShe behaved as if she .............a) was/were the boss.b) had been the boss.

She wasn't the boss when she was behaving then, but it doesn't mean that she hadn't been the boss before (she was the boss ---> she retired ---> she behaved as if she had been a boss [in the past]). So, in my opinion, that exercise is somehow confusing.

CalifJim · Answer

GPYI think the distinction was between counterfactual and non-counterfactual.

OK. Then change it to

"as if" is by its very nature counterfactual, etc.

CJ

Radovan · Answer

By "real" I meant it is/was possible. Some examples with the present tense in the main clause.

She acts as if she has a lot of money to spend on her. (It is possible she has the money, I do not know the woman.) = if that´s what is called non-counterfactual

She acts as if she had a lot of money. (I know the woman and she doesn´t have a lot of money.) = if that is what is called counterfactual

And in the past.

She acted as if she had a lot of money to spend on her.
(Can this mean both? I don´t know the woman and it is possible she had the money at her disposal and also that I know the woman, I know she didn´t have the money, but she wanted to show off or to keep up with her rich friends)

Radovan · Answer

Anonymousthat exercise is somehow confusing.

It was not an exercise, it was just my example sentence, to help me explain what I was thiking about.
Many exercises in textbooks are confusing, though

GPY · Answer

CalifJimOK. Then change it to"as if" is by its very nature counterfactual, etc.

I don't agree I'm afraid. Whatever terms you prefer, I think Radovan's distinction was a valid one.

She looks as if she is ill. -- "real", or not counterfactual
She behaves as if she was/were the boss. -- "unreal", or counterfactual

CalifJim · Answer

GPYShe looks as if she is ill. -- "real", or not counterfactual

But not factual either. I've seen this sort of thing called "non-factual".

With 'looks' and 'seems', 'as if' loses its force. She looks ill isn't much different from the wordier She looks as if she is ill (not that this addresses R's concern directly).

CJ

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