clause identification

Question

He was the first to suggest that the country should represent its people, and that since Britain was not fully catholic, it can never be a catholic nation.

"and that since Britain was not fully catholic" - what part of speech is this. is it a subordinate clause? is so, how? please explain. I thought only an independent clause can follow - and.

Mister Micawber · Accepted Answer

He was the first to suggest that the country should represent its people, and that, since Britain was not fully Catholic, it can never be a Catholic nation.

since Britain was not fully Catholic-- This is a subordinate clause imbedded in the following subordinate clause: that [, since Britain was not fully Catholic,] it can never be a Catholic nation.

Addyaddy · Answer

can a subordinate clause follow a conjunction like "and?" I always thought that only an independent clause should follow conjunctions like and.

BillJ · Answer

addyaddycan a subordinate clause follow a conjunction like "and?" I always thought that only an independent clause should follow conjunctions like and.

He was the first to suggest that the country should represent its people, and that [since Britain was not fully catholic], it can never be a catholic nation

Coordination is a relation between elements of equal syntactic status. Phrases, main clauses and subordinate clauses can all be coordinated, so there is no reason why the coordinator "and" cannot be used to join the two subordinate content clauses (underlined) in your example.

The only complication here is that in the second coordinate there is a further subordinate clause (in brackets) embedded within it, but that doesn't change the basic coordination structure of the sentence.

BillJ

Shawn79 · Answer

addyaddyI thought only an independent clause can follow - and.

I think an independent clause is implied after "and":

He was the first to suggest that the country should represent its people, and (he was the first to suggest) that since Britain was not fully catholic, it can never be a catholic nation.

There are two separate suggestions linked by "and" with each introduced by "that". Seems fine to me.

Addyaddy · Answer

I understand everything. I have one more doubt about the punctuation.
Should there be a comma between that and since in the middle clause? If so, why?

Mister Micawber · Answer

Actually, I think it should be traded for another one, omitting the one before 'and':

He was the first to suggest that the country should represent its people and that, since Britain was not fully Catholic, it can never be a Catholic nation.

BillJ · Answer

Shawn79addyaddyI thought only an independent clause can follow - and. I think an independent clause is implied after "and": He was the first to suggest that the country should represent its people, and (he was the first to suggest) that since Britain was not fully Catholic, it can never be a Catholic nation.

He was the first to suggest that the country should represent its people, and that [since Britain was not fully Catholic], it can never be a Catholic nation

I wouldn't go along with your analysis. The underlined content clauses are coordinated complements to the verb "suggest".

It may be convenient to speak of the second coordinate as being a reduction of "He was the first to suggest that since Britain was not fully Catholic it can never be a Catholic state", but this does NOT imply that it is syntactically derived by ellipsis. Syntactically these are two coordinated subordinate clauses linked by the coordinator "and".

The second coordinate is no more a main clause than the first - the presence of the subordinator "that" introducing the clause rules out that possibility.

Coordination of subordinate clauses occurs quite frequently. Consider also this example:

She wouldn't reveal why she had bought it or where it had come from.

Although linked by the coordinator "or", this is still a coordination of two subordinate interrogative clauses, not two main clauses

BillJ

Shawn79 · Answer

Let me see if I understand. When I considered them coordinated sentences with an implied main clause after "and," this was only plausible because the coordinator is "and" and there would be no difference in meaning. If we said the main clause was implied with subordinates coordinated by "or" we see the problem is it would change the meaning, right?

She wouldn't reveal why she had bought it or (she wouldn't reveal) where it had come from.

This would mean she would reveal one of the two which is not the same as the meaning of them as two independent sentences. Therefore it must be considered solely a matter of coordinating subordinates without referring to an implied main clause?

But obviously if this coordination was converted to separate sentences, each would have the same main clause, of course.

So have I understood your explanation correctly?

Thank you for teaching me how to view the syntax accurately!

Addyaddy · Answer

I came into the dark room, and since I couldn't see anything, I bumped into the chair.

This sentence follow the following structure right:

Independent clause, coordinating conjunction weak clause/subordinate clause, strong clause.

Is this an acceptable sentence construction in terms of the commas and the clauses' positions.

Problem 2:

The catholic practiced their religion in the protestant land, even peacefully and ostentatiously.

Is the comma needed. I guess the last part is a nonessential.

I fell it is a weak phrase that need not be separated by a comma.

Please help me understand this.

Mister Micawber · Answer

I came into the dark room, and since I couldn't see anything, I bumped into the chair.
Independent clause, coordinating conjunction, subordinate clause imbedded in independent clause.
Is this an acceptable sentence construction in terms of the commas and the clauses' positions?- Yes.

The Catholics practiced their religion in the Protestant land(,) both peacefully and ostentatiously.
Is the comma needed?-- I've had to change the adverb for naturalness, but the comma may or may not be called for.
I guess the last part is a nonessential.-- It could be presented either way; it depends on the writer's concept.

clause identification

Top answer

Get the Weekly English Kit 📬

Related Questions