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Usenet Posted 22 years ago
Usage

Clausal Difficulties

I'm really not happy with the definitions that I've seen for sentences, main clauses and subordinate clauses.

The problems:
(i) The idea that a sentence is a clause that expresses a complete idea, whereas a subordinate clause does not. This is far to vague and useless a definition for my liking. I'm sure I can come up with an example that breaks the definition. I do not want to rely on meaning to define subordination.
(ii) The definition of a subordinate clause as a clause that is an adjunct to a main clause, not a part of it. This seems to make things quite messy. I'm sure it does not lead to the clearest recursive definition. I suspect that in modern grammars subordinate clauses are
constituents of higher-level clauses.
(iii) Is a conjunction a part of a clause or not? For some reason I cannot gather, co-ordinating conjunctions are considered extrinsic, subordinators intrinsic. Now, this may make identifying some subordinate clauses easier. A sentence that begins `because ...' is readily identifiable as one. But one might also view coordinators as belonging to the independent clauses that follow them. Then a clause such as `and ...' starts to look less complete and more like a subordinate clause, which it is not.
(iv) What is a conjunction? One might say that it is just a word that joins clauses together. But then relative pronouns are often not classed as conjunctions, and they do perform a joining function. One might say that
a clause containing a relative pronoun could, were it not placed next to a main clause, stand as a syntactically correct sentence in its own right. E.g., the `who is coming to dinner' in `I know who is coming to dinner' may occur as an interrogative sentence. But then consider
`She arrived this morning when I was at work'. In such circumstances I have seen `when' described as a relative adverb. Now, one might think that relative adverbs are like relative pronouns and are not conjunctions. But `when I was at work' cannot stand alone as a sentence as could `who is coming to dinner'. We need to alter it to `when was I at work?'.
To try and make things absolutely clear: in the last case I am trying to show that a given definition applying to relative pronouns is wrong because it fails when applied to relative adverbs. This relies on the assumption that a single definition must cover both cases. That is an assumption based on the idea that, for the same reason, neither relative pronouns nor relative adverbs are conjunctions.

Any comments regarding this muddle much appreciated.

R.
  

Top answer

[/nq] Good, because there isn't a really good definition for them. If you come up with on, call me on 555... [nq:1]The problems: (i) The idea that a sentence is a clause that expresses a complete idea, whereas a subordinate clause ...

  • [/nq] Good, because there isn't a really good definition for them.
  • If you come up with on, call me on 555...
  • [nq:1]The problems: (i) The idea that a sentence is a clause that expresses a complete idea, whereas a subordinate clause ...
  • come up with an example that breaks the definition.
  • [/nq] Hmmm.
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40 Answers
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[nq:1]I'm really not happy with the definitions that I've seen for sentences, main clauses and subordinate clauses.[/nq]
Good, because there isn't a really good definition for them. If you come up with on, call me on 555...
[nq:1]The problems: (i) The idea that a sentence is a clause that expresses a complete idea, whereas a subordinate clause ... come up with an example that breaks the de
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[nq:1]I'm really not happy with the definitions that I've seen for sentences, main clauses and subordinate clauses. The problems: (i) ... for the same reason, neither relative pronouns nor relative adverbs are conjunctions. Any comments regarding this muddle much appreciated. R.[/nq]
I was taught, long ago, to diagram sentences and I never have questions like this. Of course, we didn't use the
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[nq:1]Hmmm. This one isn't too bad, because a subordinate clause has to depend on a main clause for a large part of its meaning,[/nq]
But, equally, the main clause often depends on the subordinate clause for its meaning. Of course, it might very well be able to stand alone as a syntactically complete sequence, but that is a different matter. The `meaning' definition, as far as I can tell, lead
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This posting is too huge to deal with in one response. I'll try to respond to section (iv) here. Maybe I'll get to the others later.
[nq:1](iv) What is a conjunction? One might say that it is just a word that joins clauses together. But then relative pronouns are often not classed as conjunctions, and they do perform a joining function.[/nq]
It is practically impossible to provide good def
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[nq:2]`She arrived this morning when I was at work'. In such circumstances I have seen `when' described as a relative adverb.[/nq]
[nq:1]No; this 'when' is not a relative adverb, but a subordinating conjunction (subordinator). Here is an example of 'when' used ... to 'the day'. Your example involves no relative clause, since the clause introduced by 'when' is attached to no head.[/nq]
I th
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ps
I first started to feel queasy about relative adverbs some time ago when I read:
(Herbert Weir Smyth, Greek Grammar)
b. Strictly `ote, entha, `ws, etc., are subordinating conjunctions when the clause introduced by them fixes the time, place, or manner of the main clause;
but are relative adverbs when they serve only to
define the antecedent and introduce a clause merely supp
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(LT)
[nq:2]No; this 'when' is not a relative adverb, but a ... the clause introduced by 'when' is attached to no head.[/nq]
[nq:1]I thought `this morning' was the head. Is it not?[/nq]
No; it is not. A relative clause forms a unit (a noun phrase) with its head. In my example, 'the day when I can retire' is such a unit: the entire phrase identifies the day under discussion. This phrase
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[nq:1](iii) Is a conjunction a part of a clause or not? For some reason I cannot gather, co-ordinating conjunctions are ... clause such as `and ...' starts to look less complete and more like a subordinate clause, which it is not.[/nq]
I think everybody would agree that a subordinating conjunction forms a constituent (a syntactic unit) with its following clause:

Susie was late ((becau
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[nq:1](LT)[/nq]
[nq:2]I thought `this morning' was the head. Is it not?[/nq]
[nq:1]No; it is not. A relative clause forms a unit (a noun phrase) with its head. In my example, 'the ... my example the relative clause 'when I can retire' explains what day I'm talking about, and not when I live.[/nq]
But, but, it seems to me, the difference is the same as between defining and non-defining
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[nq:1]I'm really not happy with the definitions that I've seen for sentences, main clauses and subordinate clauses.[/nq]
(snip)
Very interesting questions. How about,
A subordinate clause functions as a part of speech within another clause. A main clause doesn't.
A sentence is comprised of a main clause and all its subordinates. As with many other units of language, two or more sen

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