Cap or Cup?

Question

It seems that every time I post a comment it provokes a load of discussion threads. But not to be detered, I shall have a bash at another.

Perhaps someone can explain to me one small point that has been a source of amusement, for ages. If yuh travel to't North o England - lad: Say, around Sheffield, Barnsley and "Rothrum", the local dialect changes. For instance, they say " 'ospikal" when they mean "hospital", or "ee 'ant got none" instead of "he doesn't have any". I have even heard an educated(?) businessman say "Ey loowk! Ee got like wot I got!". But in spite of all this bastardisation of the language, it seems to me that the vowels are still spoken correctly (generally speaking).
But if you now travel to Cambridge, Ely, Newmarket, or anywhere south of Peterborough, then you find that the consonants in everyday speech sound good (to me) but it is the vowels that have all gone to ***. It sounds as if they drink out of a "cap" and ride a "bas".
So the basic question is: Is the Cambridge pronunciation of vowels correct? Or are Yorkshiremen correct? I mean, to speak *propper English** do you ride a "BASS" or ride a "BOOSS". Which **should* it be? Cap or Cup?

Over here in Stockholm, everyone educated in English (about 95% of the population) pronounce everything with an American accent; something similar to that you would expect on "Dallas" or "The bald and the beautiful", yet they still stand in a queue (spelled cue!!) to cash a cheque.

Oh yes! and whilst I am on the subject of accents, why do Australians and Amaricans have different accents? Basically, a load of arrogant sods, got in boats and went to another continent. They had a few slaves for company, but when they got there they killed off most of the locals and started procreating like mad. The Brits did this twice, so why should the two groups have such different accents? They don't even use the same dictionary!

Just a thought! I think it is rather funny, but accents are strange beasts to account for.
BR Harry
harryvpo )at( hotmail )dot( com
+46 73 629 5002

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]So the basic question is: Is the Cambridge pronunciation of vowels correct? Or are Yorkshiremen correct? I mean, to speak *propper English** do you ride a "BASS" or ride a "BOOSS". Which **should* it be? Cap or Cup?[/nq]
Why not choose the intermediate solution that (it seems to me) is offered by prestige varieties of AmE, notably Postwar New York Prestige Standard? I hear PNYPS "bus"/"cup" as having a vowel that is to the back of that EstE (?) vowel you hear annoyed British speakers using when they say "Cahm on!" (which they stress on the first word, it seems) in British films and TV shows and such. OTOH, PNYPS "bus"/"cup" is clearly to the front of the vowel they use Oop North.
[nq:1]Over here in Stockholm, everyone educated in English (about 95% of the population) pronounce everything with an American accent; something similar to that you would expect on "Dallas"[/nq]
A Texas accent you mean? Oy. (Nice to see you Swedes are finally getting Dallas ; now you have something besides Kojak to watch. Note to Group: be sure to include spoiler space when discussing who shot J.R.)

. or "The bald and the beautiful", yet
[nq:1]they still stand in a queue (spelled cue!!) to cash a cheque.[/nq]
Why spell it "cue", unless this is a reference to the insulting term "cue ball" that is often used to describe bald persons by those who, it would seem, do not regard the bald as beautiful?

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]So the basic question is: Is the Cambridge pronunciation of ... or ride a "BOOSS". Which *should* it be? Cap orCup?[/nq]
[nq:1]Why not choose the intermediate solution that (it seems to me) isoffered by prestige varieties of AmE, notably Postwar New York PrestigeStandard?[/nq]
Given what he wrote about Americans, I doubt he wants to sound like one.
[nq:1]I hear PNYPS "bus"/"cup" as having a vowel that is to the back ofthat EstE (?) vowel you hear annoyed British speakers using when they say"Cahm on!" (which they stress on the first word, it seems) in Britishfilms and TV shows and such.[/nq]
Seems likely; after all the Estuary vowel is close to (a). I'd have just written "Cam on".
[nq:1]OTOH, PNYPS "bus"/"cup" is clearly to the front of the vowel they use Oop North.[/nq]
I don't know about that, even for the ones who say "oop". Your vowel is really quite back - look at Bob Cunningham's formant analysis on http://www.alt-usage-english.org/Fontana chart.gif . the traditional northern English vowel would be much higher, though.

Though I haven't done any formant analysis, my own "cut" vowel (which is something of a compromise vowel) feels quite fronted. It's also rounded, unlike the AmE or southern English "cut" vowel, and the difference between "cut" and "cat" feels like it's in the lowness of the latter and the roundedness of the former
Jonathan

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]It seems that every time I post a comment it provokes a load ofdiscussion threads. But not to be detered, ... changes. Forinstance, they say " 'ospikal" when they mean "hospital", or "ee 'ant gotnone" instead of "he doesn't have any".[/nq]
True. (I'm from Sheffield, though I don't have a very strong dialect myself.)
[nq:1]I have even heard an educated(?) businessman say "Ey loowk! Ee got like wot I got!".[/nq]
I guess you mean "look" with the vowel of "boot" rather than that of "put". I think this is a low-prestige variant in Sheffield, though I have reason to believe that it's more standard in some other parts of northern England.
[nq:1]But in spite of all this bastardisation of the language,[/nq]
Bastardisation?
[nq:1]it seems to me that the vowels are still spoken correctly (generally speaking).[/nq]
Of course. (Not "of cauce".)
[nq:1]But if you now travel to Cambridge, Ely, Newmarket, or anywheresouth of Peterborough,[/nq]
Why specifically those places (all in or near Cambridgeshire)?
[nq:1]then you find that the consonants in everyday speech sound good (to me) but it is the vowels that have all gone to ***. Itsounds as if they drink out of a "cap" and ride a "bas".[/nq]
Yes, quite common in southern England (and southern hemisphere) accents.
[nq:1]So the basic question is: Is the Cambridge pronunciation of vowelscorrect? Or are Yorkshiremen correct? I mean, to speak *propper English** doyou ride a "BASS" or ride a "BOOSS". Which **should* it be? Cap or Cup?[/nq]
Which do you think?
[nq:1]Oh yes! and whilst I am on the subject of accents, why doAustralians and Amaricans have different accents? Basically, a ... The Brits did this twice, so why should thetwo groups have such different accents? They don't even use the samedictionary![/nq]
I presume it has a lot to do with differences between 17th century and 19th century varieties of British English, and a lot to do with different evolution of the languages since the colonisations. A lot can happen to a language in 300 years, or even in 50 - compare BBC English in 2003 with BBC English in 1953.
Jonathan

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]It seems that every time I post a comment it provokes a load of discussion threads. But not to be ... spite of allthis bastardisation of the language, it seems to me that the vowels are still spoken correctly (generally speaking).[/nq]Bastardization of language seems a useless concept to me. Every dialect including the standard dialect evolves to serve the needs of its speech community, so in that sense all dialects are equal, since, as anthropologists will tell you, there is no such thing as a "simple" society. And to use the term "bastardization/bastardisation" when speaking of the regional dialects of England is even more absurd, if that's possible, because there is little or no chance that the dialects which you heard are descended from the dialect called Standard British English and likely no chance that the accents you heard are based upon Received Pronunciation.

Rather the regional dialects you mention co-evolved with the standard dialect. Since they were not based upon Standard British English with Received Pronunciation, it makes absolutely no sense to claim that they are bastardized forms of it.
[nq:1]But if you now travel to Cambridge, Ely, Newmarket, or anywhere south of Peterborough, then you find that the consonants ... funny, but accents are strange beasts to account for. BR Harry harryvpo )at( hotmail )dot( com +46 73 629 5002[/nq]
You see characteristics in the emigrants from England who went to America and Australia which make them seem similar to you, and then conclude that the speech of their descendants should be similar. But (1) just a small difference in the speech of the original emigrants could lead to a large difference in the speech of their descendants (just as happens in the case of biological evolution) and I imagine the actual difference in the two groups was a large one and (2) even if the original emigrants had been identical, their descendants would have ended up speaking with different dialects and accents, simply based on their having been separated geographically.
Separation is necessary for dialects to diverge, but it doesn't have to be only geographical. In the case of Black American Sign Language, it was the racial segregation of schools for the deaf in the American South which led to a separate dialect of American Sign language to develop, one which, as it says at Ethnologue.com at
http://www.ethnologue.com/show language.asp?code=ASE

"contains much sign vocabulary not in ASL and some different grammatical structure."

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]A Texas accent you mean? Oy. (Nice to see you Swedes are finally getting Dallas ; now you have something besides Kojak to watch. Note to Group: be sure to include spoiler space when discussing who shot J.R.)[/nq]
We saw Dallas many years ago (almost 20?), just a couple of years later than in the U.S. I don't think there is any rerun planned.

Lars Enderin

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