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Fortiter Posted 21 years ago
Grammar
Can't vs. mayn't
I'm Italian and live in Italy, where books on English are often odd, grammatically speaking....
For instance, in those books you can find a rule about the negative forms of "may" and "can" saying that "cannot" indicates something sure (you cannot swim = you are not able or not allowed to swim at all), while "may not" just indicates something negative as possible (you may not swim = it's not necessary you swim).
Yesterday I found another book saying the opposite, however. "Use "may not"/"must not"/"cannot" for prohibition. Examples: a) Unauthorized personnel may not enter. b) He must not forget. c) You cannot go yet".
Now, I'd understand the sentence a) as meaning that perhaps unauthorized personnel doesn't enter but may enter too....
For prohibition, I'd put: "Unauthorized personnel is not allowed/is not permitted/must not/cannot enter".
Am I wrong?
For instance, in those books you can find a rule about the negative forms of "may" and "can" saying that "cannot" indicates something sure (you cannot swim = you are not able or not allowed to swim at all), while "may not" just indicates something negative as possible (you may not swim = it's not necessary you swim).
Yesterday I found another book saying the opposite, however. "Use "may not"/"must not"/"cannot" for prohibition. Examples: a) Unauthorized personnel may not enter. b) He must not forget. c) You cannot go yet".
Now, I'd understand the sentence a) as meaning that perhaps unauthorized personnel doesn't enter but may enter too....
For prohibition, I'd put: "Unauthorized personnel is not allowed/is not permitted/must not/cannot enter".
Am I wrong?
Top answer
Hello Fortiter, welcome to English Forums! Good screen name. Your example A is a 'polite but forceful' use of 'may'.
- Hello Fortiter, welcome to English Forums!
- Good screen name.
- Your example A is a 'polite but forceful' use of 'may'.
- There is no doubt that unauthorized personnel are not allowed to enter.
- The use of 'may' is simply to soften the prohibition.
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35 Answers
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Hello Fortiter, welcome to English Forums! Good screen name.
Your example A is a 'polite but forceful' use of 'may'. There is no doubt that unauthorized personnel are not allowed to enter. The use of 'may' is simply to soften the prohibition.
Of your other versions, 'are not allowed' and 'cannot' would sound quite mild. 'not permitted' would be fine. 'must not' is a little st
Your example A is a 'polite but forceful' use of 'may'. There is no doubt that unauthorized personnel are not allowed to enter. The use of 'may' is simply to soften the prohibition.
Of your other versions, 'are not allowed' and 'cannot' would sound quite mild. 'not permitted' would be fine. 'must not' is a little st
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Very helpful and clear, Mr. Pedantic! Thanks a lot!
Yet, I'd ask you something more about your kind reply:
1) how could I just express uncertainty (not a prohibition) in such a sentence as: "You may not swim in my swimming pool"? How can I say that - after a certain time, for example - "you can swim in my s.p. if you wish (but you're not obliged to, of course)"? In Italian we have
Yet, I'd ask you something more about your kind reply:
1) how could I just express uncertainty (not a prohibition) in such a sentence as: "You may not swim in my swimming pool"? How can I say that - after a certain time, for example - "you can swim in my s.p. if you wish (but you're not obliged to, of course)"? In Italian we have
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In other words, how can I render the same mood, same meaning same nuance of such a sentence as "he MAY NOT arrive on time" in the following sentence:
- You MAY NOT swim in my swimming pool
- She said I MIGHT NOT swim in her pool?
- You MAY NOT swim in my swimming pool
- She said I MIGHT NOT swim in her pool?
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You can't make a direct translation in this way as in English, we do not use the negative to imply uncertainty. The word 'may' does this for you. 'You may swim in this pool' means they can if they want, certainly no one is going to push them in to force them to. To say that it is compulsory to swim in the pool you would say 'You must swim in this pool'. 'You can swim in this pool' means that
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Thanks Nona for your help.
May I tell you that what you wrote - "we do not use the negative to imply uncertainty" - sounds a little odd to me? I thought "He may not arrive on time" did imply uncertainty.... Or what?
I'm waiting for your feedback.
Thanks in advance
May I tell you that what you wrote - "we do not use the negative to imply uncertainty" - sounds a little odd to me? I thought "He may not arrive on time" did imply uncertainty.... Or what?
I'm waiting for your feedback.
Thanks in advance
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Hello Fortiter
Both forms are ambiguous:
1. 'He may not arrive on time.'
a) It is possible that he will not arrive on time.
b) He is not allowed to arrive on time.
2. 'He may not use the swimming pool.'
a) It is possible that he won't use the swimming pool.
b) He is not allowed to use the swimming pool.
We have to judge which one is corr
Both forms are ambiguous:
1. 'He may not arrive on time.'
a) It is possible that he will not arrive on time.
b) He is not allowed to arrive on time.
2. 'He may not use the swimming pool.'
a) It is possible that he won't use the swimming pool.
b) He is not allowed to use the swimming pool.
We have to judge which one is corr
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1) 'You may not swim in my swimming pool!' (quite formal or authoritative)
2) 'She said I might not swim in her pool.'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JT: Are you offering 2) as an example of reported speech for 1), Mr P?
2) 'She said I might not swim in her pool.'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JT: Are you offering 2) as an example of reported speech for 1), Mr P?
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I think that what Fortiter was asking about is: can we use the phrase “you may not swim in this pool” as a permission “not to swim” (if one doesn’t feel like it), i.e., a permission to refrain from swimming, and if we can, then how to distinguish such a permission from a prohibition?
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The second reply of Mr. Pedantic has been very interesting and complete...
However, what I meant with my examples was exactly what "An Attempt" has just explained here above.
In the same line, I have another pair of sentences taken from my English grammar book.
"It cannot be that way" (meaning, if I've learnt your clarifications well, that "it's impossible for someth
However, what I meant with my examples was exactly what "An Attempt" has just explained here above.
In the same line, I have another pair of sentences taken from my English grammar book.
"It cannot be that way" (meaning, if I've learnt your clarifications well, that "it's impossible for someth
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I think that what Fortiter was asking about is: can we use the phrase “you may not swim in this pool” as a permission “not to swim” (if one doesn’t feel like it), i.e., a permission to refrain from swimming, and if we can, then how to distinguish such a permission from a prohibition?
Ah!
It would be a very rare occurrence. But for instance, how would we dis
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