Can/may I go to the bathroom?

Question

Are the teachers still enforcing the difference between "Can I..." and "May I..." or have they chilled out on the matter?

I'm still haunted by: "Yes, you are physically capable of going to the bathroom, but the question is may you."

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Are the teachers still enforcing the difference between "Can I..." and "May I..." or have they chilled out on the matter? I'm still haunted by: "Yes, you are physically capable of going to the bathroom, but the question is may you."[/nq]
How would we go about answering such a question, I wonder. The most we could do, if we happen to have school-age children or know someone who does, would be to make reference to a given teacher who either insisted upon such a distinction between "can' and "may" or who permitted a student who used "can" to leave the classroom.
Knowing what I know about the conflict between the advocates of traditional English grammar and. the advocates of contemporary, usage-based English grammar, I would expect some teachers to continue to insist upon the distinction.
What I'd really like to know is whether, in recent years, a teacher ever got into trouble for insisting upon the distinction to a confused student who went on to have a bathroom accident in the classroom before he could sort out the matter.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, MInnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]What I'd really like to know is whether, in recent years, a teacher ever got into trouble for insisting upon the distinction to a confused student who went on to have a bathroom accident in the classroom before he could sort out the matter.[/nq]
If that happened you could be sure the student would forever remember the distinction.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]What I'd really like to know is whether, in recent ... in the classroom before he could sort out the matter.[/nq]
[nq:1]If that happened you could be sure the student would forever remember the distinction.[/nq]
He has to first understand the distinction before he can remember it, which might take additional explanation.
I recently saw a few minutes of a (fictional) film in which a father and son had to have a meeting with the principal of the boy's school because the son had not understood the distinction between "can" and "may" in a similar classroom situation. The father, for whom English was a second language, had trouble himself figuring out what the problem was: It seemed to him that his son had asked correctly permission in a polite manner. At the point I turned to another station, the father and son were walking back home, the father complaining about the complications which existed in the English language.
The following is from the *Oxford-Hachette French Dictionary,* (C) 1994, from the entry for "pouvoir" ("ou" means "or"):
"I* *2* (=EAtre autoris=E9 =E0) to be allowed to; *les =E9l=E8ves ne peuvent pas quitter l'=E9tablissment sans autorisation pupils can't ou may not ou are not allowed to leave the school without permission"
That's just to show that it's not only English which can dispense with the distinction.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA=20
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Are the teachers still enforcing the difference between "Can I..." and "May I..." or have they chilled out on the matter?[/nq]
~~snip~~
[nq:1]Knowing what I know about the conflict between the advocates of traditional English grammar and. the advocates of contemporary, usage-based English grammar, I would expect some teachers to continue to insist upon the distinction.[/nq]
I'm sure there are, and whilst I'm entirely in the descriptive camp on this "can" has been used to mean "may" for more than a century, and cannot be classed as "wrong" I don't really have any objection to a teacher using situations like that to highlight that there is, in fact, a difference between the ability/permission senses of "can" and "may".

Cheers, Harvey
Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years)
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

Usenet · Answer

"Raymond S. Wise" (Email Removed) a écrit dans le message de
[nq:2]What I'd really like to know is whether, in recent ... in the classroom before he could sort out the matter.[/nq]
[nq:1]If that happened you could be sure the student would forever remember the distinction.[/nq]
He has to first understand the distinction before he can remember it, which might take additional explanation.
I recently saw a few minutes of a (fictional) film in which a father and son had to have a meeting with the principal of the boy's school because the son had not understood the distinction between "can" and "may" in a similar classroom situation. The father, for whom English was a second language, had trouble himself figuring out what the problem was: It seemed to him that his son had asked correctly permission in a polite manner. At the point I turned to another station, the father and son were walking back home, the father complaining about the complications which existed in the English language.
The following is from the *Oxford-Hachette French Dictionary,* (C) 1994, from the entry for "pouvoir" ("ou" means "or"):
"I* *2* (être autorisé à) to be allowed to; *les élèves ne peuvent pas quitter l'établissment sans autorisation pupils can't ou may not ou are not allowed to leave the school without permission"
That's just to show that it's not only English which can dispense with the distinction.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

I just to point out that most of the time the difference between "May I go to the bathrooms?" or "Can I go to the bathrooms" won't be seen in French sentence.
The translation of the two sentenses would be "Puis-je aller à la toilette ?", and this sentence in French needs to commented on if you want to be more accurate.
For example:
1. "Puis-je aller à la toilette ?" translated by "May I..." would simplyabout about an authorization in a polite way.

2. "Puis-je..." translated by "Can I..." would imply that the bathrooms weree.g. out of order.
The point is that French often needs more words than just the verb to express the same idea than in English. "Pouvoir" can be translated by "can", "be able to", "may", "be allowed to", etc.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Are the teachers still enforcing the difference between "Can I..." and "May I..." or have they chilled out on the matter? I'm still haunted by: "Yes, you are physically capable of going to the bathroom, but the question is may you."[/nq]
I still torment my 11 year old with this, and I'm sure she'll grow up fine. That's fine, not good. Do you enforce a difference between those two?

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Are the teachers still enforcing the difference between "Can I..." ... going to the bathroom, but the question is may you."[/nq]
[nq:1]I still torment my 11 year old with this, and I'm sure she'll grow up fine. That's fine, not good. Do you enforce a difference between those two?[/nq]
That is a straw man argument. I am aware of some limited circumstances in which "good" can idiomatically be substituted for "fine." For example:
"Do you need a warm-up on that coffee?"
"No, I'm fine."/"No, I'm good."
"She'll grow up good," in contrast, is not an idiomatic substitute for "She'll grow up fine." A Google search seems to support this, since the only examples of "she'll grow up good" which I could find were ones in which "good" means "moral," which is not what "fine" means in "She'll grow up fine."
The only reason it occurs to children to use "can" to ask permission is that they hear others use it in that manner. It is, in other words, an idiomatic usage, not an error such as "mans" for "men" that younger children or non-native speakers of English sometimes make.

In any case, language changes. "Fine" originally meant "free from impurity." "Can" originally meant "to know" or "to understand." And, surprise, surprise, "may" originally meant "to have the ability to"! ( Source: *The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary* at www.m-w.com ).

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]In any case, language changes. "Fine" originally meant "free from impurity." "Can" originally meant "to know" or "to understand." And, surprise, surprise, "may" originally meant "to have the ability to"! ( Source: *The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary* at www.m-w.com ).[/nq]
That's hardly a surprise, since the Indo-European root of "may" is *magh-*, meaning "To be able, have power". The contemporary derivatives "mog-", "moh-", "moch-" etc. still mean "can" in most Slavic languages. And I hope all here know what "Macht" means in German

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Are the teachers still enforcing the difference between "Can I..." and "May I..." or have they chilled out on the matter? I'm still haunted by: "Yes, you are physically capable of going to the bathroom, but the question is may you."[/nq]
I cannot speak for current teachers, but I had one who would answer, "*** knows, I hope so." But
then again she always interrupted the 'impersonal
you' with "No, I don't." and "you know" with "If I know already, why are you telling me?"
GFH

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geor...@ankerstein.org
Jan 8, 9:06 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.english.usage

Local: Sun, Jan 8 2006 9:06 am
Subject: Re: Can/may I go to the bathroom?
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[nq:1]Are the teachers still enforcing the difference between "Can I..." and "May I..." or have they chilled out on the matter? I'm still haunted by: "Yes, you are physically capable of going to the bathroom, but the question is may you."[/nq]
I cannot speak for current teachers, but I had one who would answer, "*** knows, I hope so." But
then again she always interrupted the 'impersonal
you' with "No, I don't." and "you know" with "If I know already, why are you telling me?"

I love that teacher!
Do the teachers of today know the difference themselves?

Way back when, we didn't get it from teachers; we'd already gotten it from our mothers when we asked for cookies.
I've heard that BrE makes no difference, and hasn't for yonks. AmE has, though, and some speakers of AmE still do.
Cece

Can/may I go to the bathroom?

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