British surname customs: "Rhys Jones"

Question

Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a Welsh surname much as "Aman" is a Bavarese surname, but it occurs to me that, while "Jones", also associated with the Welsh, is one of the most common surnames in the US, "Rhys Jones" looks specifically British (indeed, this is probably true of "Rhys" by itself (as opposed to "Rice" or "Reese" which I understand to be Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"(1)).
If I'm right that these "Rhys"-type surnames are extremely uncommon in the US, despite the prevalence of British-origin or British-appearing surnames, and if they're as common in the UK as they seem to be (or maybe they just stand out), what's the reason for this? Are all the "Rhys Jones"es descended from a single Rhys Jones who lived no earlier than 1800? Is this some legacy of 19th century Welsh neo-nationalism? Were surnames unused in Wales before the 19th century? Were all the "Rhys"es "Rice"es or Reeces or Reeses prior to that time? The 19th century thing doesn't explain everything, since there must have been a fair amount of post-1789 Welsh immigration to the US. Does a surname like "Rhys Jones" suggest middle-class status in a way that bare "Jones" or "Rhys" wouldn't (see FN1 below)?
The Richoux Ratio(TM) of "rhys jones" to "rhys jones" site:.uk is 3:1, which suggests that there's something going on here.

(1)More general question: what's the cultural significance of such hyphenated or double surnames in the UK? To my untrained AmE eye they seem a lot more prevalent in the UK than in the US (I'm not including post-1970 women who use hyphenated surnames comprising their maiden and married surnames) and seem sort of pretentious or rising-bourgeoisie in nature in a sort of antiquated way (NTTAWWT).

Steny '08!

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a ... which I understand to be Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"(1)).[/nq]
ObAUE: Can there be more than one most common surname in the US?
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to ... or double surnames that begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"(1)).[/nq]
[nq:1]ObAUE: Can there be more than one most common surname in the US?[/nq]
Unfair ObAUE, sez I: he wrote "one of the most common", which commonly implies a set comprising "the most common" without, commonly, implying supremacy in commonness.

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]ObAUE: Can there be more than one most common surname in the US?[/nq]
[nq:1]Unfair ObAUE, sez I: he wrote "one of the most common", which commonly implies a set comprising "the most common" without, commonly, implying supremacy in commonness.[/nq]
Oh, there's nothing unfair about an obAUE, as it is not an Oy! or anything like it. Mine was merely a friendly inquiry. In English usage, that is. No harm meant. As you were, and all that stuff.

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Unfair ObAUE, sez I: he wrote "one of the most ... comprising "the most common" without, commonly, implying supremacy in commonness.[/nq]
[nq:1]Oh, there's nothing unfair about an obAUE, as it is not an Oy! or anything like it. Mine was merely a friendly inquiry. In English usage, that is. No harm meant. As you were, and all that stuff.[/nq]
OK; I'm as I was..

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to thinking about this. I gather that "Rhys Jones" is a ... which I understand to be Anglicized forms), and other hyphenated or double surnames that begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"(1)).[/nq]
Like Mandy Rice Davies? Davies and variations like Davys and Davis are also Welsh.
The thing with 'Jones' is that it's such a prevalent name in Wales. I mean, we're not talking Kim in Korea, but it's getting there. This led to the frequently quoted and stereotypical notion of naming people after their professions - Jones the Fruit, Jones the Plumbing, Jones the Psychotherapy etc, not to mention the well-known Dai Postman and Dai the Death undertaker. So another way to get round it is by adding another half to your name, possibly from the distaff side. You get a lot of Price-Jones, Wynne-Jones, Parry-Jones and various Rhys- Reece- and Rice-Jones.
[nq:1]If I'm right that these "Rhys"-type surnames are extremely uncommon in the US, despite the prevalence of British-origin or British-appearing surnames, and if they're as common in the UK as they seem to be (or maybe they just stand out), what's the reason for this?[/nq]
To some extent, these names are markers for people from professional middle-class families, and maybe they're more likely to be achievers who are known internationally, giving the false impression that their names are more common amongst the general population. Would USans have heard of Griff Rhys Jones? (actor, writer and comic)
[nq:1]Are all the "Rhys Jones"es descended from a single Rhys Jones who lived no earlier than 1800?[/nq]
Probably not.
[nq:1]Is this some legacy of 19th century Welsh neo-nationalism? Were surnames unused in Wales before the 19th century?[/nq]
Dunno, but that rings a bell...
[nq:1]Were all the "Rhys"es "Rice"es or Reeces or Reeses prior to that time? The 19th century thing doesn't explain everything, ... a surname like "Rhys Jones" suggest middle-class status in a way that bare "Jones" or "Rhys" wouldn't (see FN1 below)?[/nq]
Yes. See above and below.
[nq:1]The Richoux Ratio(TM) of "rhys jones" to "rhys jones" site:.uk is 3:1, which suggests that there's something going on here. (1)More general question: what's the cultural significance of such hyphenated or double surnames in the UK?[/nq]
Possession of a "double-barrelled surname" in England does indeed suggest either a 'county set' origin or pretensions to it. It's a bit different in Wales, where as I said, it's a professional thing - when I was a kid in Wales people like the doctor and my Dad's solicitor (AmE 'lawyer who sells your house') all had these sorts of names. I can't think of a single Scot or Northern Irelander who has one. Oh hang on, my boss in Edinburgh, but she's one of those..
[nq:1]post-1970 women who use hyphenated surnames comprising their maiden and married surnames)[/nq]
DC

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]On 15 Jan 2005, Skitt wrote[/nq]
[nq:2]Oh, there's nothing unfair about an obAUE, as it is ... No harm meant. As you were, and all that stuff.[/nq]
[nq:1]OK; I'm as I was..[/nq]
I wish I could say that. As I was about 30 years ago.
dg (domain=ccwebster)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]Possession of a "double-barrelled surname" in England does indeed suggest either a 'county set' origin or pretensions to it. It's ... single Scot or Northern Irelander who has one. Oh hang on, my boss in Edinburgh, but she's one of those..[/nq]
That great actor Emlyn Williams was actually christened George Emlyn Williams.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Is this some legacy of 19th century Welsh neo-nationalism? Were surnames unused in Wales before the 19th century?[/nq]
[nq:1]Dunno, but that rings a bell...[/nq]
The process of converting patronymics into surnames began in Wales about the 16th century, but was not complete until the 19th. Those who were most exposed to English influence, whether for social or geographical reasons, moved faster. The Welsh population shares an extraordinarily small number of surnames, almost all of them converted patronymics, some of which have absorbed the particle "ap", which means "son of". So
John Jones
Richard Pritchard
Rees Rhys, Preece, Price
William Williams
David Davis, Davies
Most traditional Christian names are also found unchanged as surnames - John, Lewis, Rees.
I suspect that the greater popularity of multiple surnames in Wales has something to do with the fact that there are so few to go round.

Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Alan Jones's posting regarding suffixes in surnames got me to ... or double surnames that begin with "Rhys", like "Rhys Davies"(1)).[/nq]
[nq:1]Like Mandy Rice Davies? Davies and variations like Davys and Davis are also Welsh. The thing with 'Jones' is that ... name, possibly from the distaff side. You get a lot of Price-Jones, Wynne-Jones, Parry-Jones and various Rhys- Reece- and Rice-Jones.[/nq]
Someone once told me that there is no J in Welsh.

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]Possession of a "double-barrelled surname" in England does indeed suggest ... on, my boss in Edinburgh, but she's one of those..[/nq]
[nq:1]That great actor Emlyn Williams was actually christened George Emlyn Williams.[/nq]
Anoher Welsh professional of course.
DC

British surname customs: "Rhys Jones"

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