Bob met a girl who he believed was at the crime scene.

Question

Are the following sentences correct?What do they mean?#1. Bob met a girl who he believed was at the crime scene.#2. Bob met a girl he believed who was at the crime scene.#3. Bob met a girl who he knew was at the crime scene.#4. Bob met a girl he knew who was at the crime scene.It’s so tough and I’m confused.

AliceW31 · Accepted Answer

Hi, only #1 and #3 are correct. The "who he believed/knew..." is a relative clause describing the girl and therefore the "who" should come immediately following "girl". Also, note that while many people (even native speakers!) use "who", traditional grammar says "whom" is correct. Furthermore, the "who" could actually be deleted in both sentences without a lost in meaning.

In terms of meaning, #1 tells you that that Bob has met a girl and that this girl is believed to be at the crime scene. In #3, Bob has met a girl and that Bob knows with more certainty that this girl was at the crime scence (thus, "knew" is used).

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Clive · Answer

Hi,
I wouldn't say 2 and 4 are wrong in everyday relaxed speech. But they probably don't convey the meaning you intend, and obviously require a suitable context in which their meaning makes sense.

#2. Bob met a girl he believed who was at the crime scene.
I'd parse it this way.
( Bob met a girl ) (that he believed ) (who was at the crime scene).

ie He met a girl. He believed her (about what, we don't know). She was at the crime scene.

#4. Bob met a girl he knew who was at the crime scene.
Same approach.
I'd parse it this way.
( Bob met a girl ) (that he knew ) (who was at the crime scene).

ie He met a girl. He knew her. She was at the crime scene.

Best wishes, Clive

Northwind · Answer

Hi Clive,

Thanks for your detailed explanation!

That's exactly what I was wondering. I thought there's some possibility that the sentences mean what you say. But they seemed grammatically incorrect to me. And you said they do mean that and are used in everyday relaxed speech. I'm so surprised.

Aren't #2 and #4 used in formal speaking or writing? Or are #2 and #4 grammatically incorrect?

Thanks!

Northwind · Answer

Hi Clive,

Or do you mean #2 is used instead of #5 and #5 is correct?
Do you mean #4 is used instead of #6 and #6 is correct?

#5. Bob met a girl he believed, who was at the crime scene.
#6. Bob met a girl he knew, who was at the crime scene.

That is to say do you mean the comma is not visible in speaking?

Clive · Answer

Hi,

#1. Bob met a girl who he believed was at the crime scene.

#2. Bob met a girl he believed who was at the crime scene.

#3. Bob met a girl who he knew was at the crime scene.

#4. Bob met a girl he knew who was at the crime scene.

___________________________________________

Thanks for your detailed explanation!

That's exactly what I was wondering. I thought there's some possibility that the sentences mean what you say. But they seemed grammatically incorrect to me. And you said they do mean that and are used in everyday relaxed speech. I'm so surprised.

Aren't #2 and #4 used in formal speaking or writing? No. They are not well planned and constructed sentences.
Even a simple 'and' would be an imporvement,
eg Bob met a girl he believed and who was at the crime scene.

#2, for example, sounds like the speaker decided just to say 'Bob met a girl he believed', and then while speaking decided to combine this with the idea that 'Oh, here's another thing about her, she was at the crime scene'.

Or are #2 and #4 grammatically incorrect? No, they are not, except I'd use the commas as in your #5 and #6.

Thanks!

____________________________________________

Or do you mean #2 is used instead of #5 and #5 is correct? Yes.
Do you mean #4 is used instead of #6 and #6 is correct? Yes.

#5. Bob met a girl he believed, who was at the crime scene.
#6. Bob met a girl he knew, who was at the crime scene.

That is to say do you mean the comma is not visible in speaking? Exactly. In speaking, there wouldn't be much of a pause at all.

____________________________________________

Best wishes, Clive

MrPedantic · Answer

1. Bob met a girl who he believed was at the crime scene.

I would just add that "whom" would not be grammatically correct in this sentence.

The phrase "he believed" is parenthetical; "who" is the subject of "was", and therefore may not be replaced with "whom".

Best wishes,

MrP

Northwind · Answer

Hi, Clive, MrPedantic, AliceW31,

Woow!!
How wonderful!!
Gotcha!!

Thanks!!

Anonymous · Answer

Mr. P.

You know your English grammar. I am impressed!

Cat

Bob met a girl who he believed was at the crime scene.

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