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Usenet Posted 23 years ago
Usage
"between you and I" as a dialectal usage
In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently discussed, and while doing research on the matter I found the following:
From
http://www.linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-most-recent/msg10790.html
(quote, from Joseph F Foster, Associate Professor of Anthropology, University of Cincinnati, Ohio)
All languages have dialects and there is no way of speaking a language that is not a dialect. A dialect is simply a consistent way of speaking a given language shared by two or more people. (A given way of speaking a language peculiar to only one person is called an idiolect. ) The term language is used by the ignorant or the antilinguists to mean a "standard dialect" and dialect is used by them to mean a "nonstandard" dialect. These people often believe that there is some special characteristic of a standard dialect that makes it fit to be the standard and some special characteristic either present or lacking in nonstandard dialects that make them unfit to be the standard. They are mistaken and can furnish no comparative evidence that this belief is true.
(end quote)
Under criticism from others of my description of "between you and I" as belonging to the dialect of those who use it, when they learned it from others, I began to resort to using the word "lect" for the sort of variety of language in question. I have decided I will no longer do so: I agree with the definition of "dialect" given above, and so, the construction "between you and I" is clearly a dialectal usage, as is any other nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
From
http://www.linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-most-recent/msg10790.html
(quote, from Joseph F Foster, Associate Professor of Anthropology, University of Cincinnati, Ohio)
All languages have dialects and there is no way of speaking a language that is not a dialect. A dialect is simply a consistent way of speaking a given language shared by two or more people. (A given way of speaking a language peculiar to only one person is called an idiolect. ) The term language is used by the ignorant or the antilinguists to mean a "standard dialect" and dialect is used by them to mean a "nonstandard" dialect. These people often believe that there is some special characteristic of a standard dialect that makes it fit to be the standard and some special characteristic either present or lacking in nonstandard dialects that make them unfit to be the standard. They are mistaken and can furnish no comparative evidence that this belief is true.
(end quote)
Under criticism from others of my description of "between you and I" as belonging to the dialect of those who use it, when they learned it from others, I began to resort to using the word "lect" for the sort of variety of language in question. I have decided I will no longer do so: I agree with the definition of "dialect" given above, and so, the construction "between you and I" is clearly a dialectal usage, as is any other nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Top answer
usage , the term "dialect" was recently discussed, and while doing research on the matter I found ... [/nq] I'm not sure I want an anthropologist to define linguistic terms. And if you accept what he says, what of the OED's: > ?
- usage , the term "dialect" was recently discussed, and while doing research on the matter I found ...
- [/nq] I'm not sure I want an anthropologist to define linguistic terms.
- And if you accept what he says, what of the OED's: > ?
- Fowler also sees dialect as a variation from the 'standard' form of a language.
- By your definition, every usage is dialect and the term ceases to have any use in our discussions.
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95 Answers
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[nq:1]In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently discussed, and while doing research on the matter I found ... I" is clearly a dialectal usage, as is any other nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
I'm not sure I want an anthropologist to define linguistic terms. And if you accept what he says, what of the OED's:
> ?
Fowle
I'm not sure I want an anthropologist to define linguistic terms. And if you accept what he says, what of the OED's:
> ?
Fowle
00
"Raymond S. Wise" (Email Removed) wrote on 15 Nov 2003:
[nq:1]In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently discussed, and while doing research on the matter I found ... I" is clearly a dialectal usage, as is any other nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
I can agree with Foster's notion that the standard version of any language is mere
[nq:1]In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently discussed, and while doing research on the matter I found ... I" is clearly a dialectal usage, as is any other nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
I can agree with Foster's notion that the standard version of any language is mere
00
"John Dean" (Email Removed) wrote on 15 Nov 2003:
[nq:2]In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently ... nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
[nq:1]I'm not sure I want an anthropologist to define linguistic terms. And if you accept what he says, what of the OED's:[/nq]
He might be a linguistic anthropologist, which would make him b
[nq:2]In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently ... nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
[nq:1]I'm not sure I want an anthropologist to define linguistic terms. And if you accept what he says, what of the OED's:[/nq]
He might be a linguistic anthropologist, which would make him b
00
(snip)
[nq:1]Under criticism from others of my description of "between you and I" as belonging to the dialect of those who ... I" is clearly a dialectal usage, as is any other nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
Okay already. To your average punter, me included, a dialect is a version of a language used in a particular region (or, possibly, social grouping).
[nq:1]Under criticism from others of my description of "between you and I" as belonging to the dialect of those who ... I" is clearly a dialectal usage, as is any other nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
Okay already. To your average punter, me included, a dialect is a version of a language used in a particular region (or, possibly, social grouping).
00
[nq:2]In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently ... nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
[nq:1]I'm not sure I want an anthropologist to define linguistic terms.[/nq]
What about allowing a linguist to define linguistic terms? I'm sure I could find you numerous citations.
[nq:1]And if you accept what he says, what of the OED's: &g
[nq:1]I'm not sure I want an anthropologist to define linguistic terms.[/nq]
What about allowing a linguist to define linguistic terms? I'm sure I could find you numerous citations.
[nq:1]And if you accept what he says, what of the OED's: &g
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[nq:1]Calling "between you and I" "clearly a dialectal usage" does not mean it isn't "standard" to some of us or ... English now. The former say things like "That's the way the language is used, so it's acceptable, grammatical, and standard".[/nq]
Do the authors of the NCGE really use English
this way? One of the primary meanings of
"standard" is a form to which some instances
conf
Do the authors of the NCGE really use English
this way? One of the primary meanings of
"standard" is a form to which some instances
conf
00
[nq:1]In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently discussed, and while doing research on the matter I found ... I" is clearly a dialectal usage, as is any other nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
As is any so-called standard usage, if you use the above definition.
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
As is any so-called standard usage, if you use the above definition.
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
00
[nq:1](snip) and so, the construction "between you and I" is clearly a dialectal usage, as is any other nonstandard usage which is learned by one person from another.[/nq]
(snip)
Between you and me, while "between you and I" certainly meets your criteria, it is less a dialectical usage than it is an affectation.
Franklin
(snip)
Between you and me, while "between you and I" certainly meets your criteria, it is less a dialectical usage than it is an affectation.
Franklin
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"Don Phillipson" (Email Removed) wrote on 16 Nov 2003:
[nq:2]Calling "between you and I" "clearly a dialectal usage" does ... the language is used, so it's acceptable, grammatical, and standard".[/nq]
[nq:1]Do the authors of the NCGE really use English this way? One of the primary meanings of "standard" is a ... accepted as "standard," i.e. no non-standard instance is imaginable, it seems
[nq:2]Calling "between you and I" "clearly a dialectal usage" does ... the language is used, so it's acceptable, grammatical, and standard".[/nq]
[nq:1]Do the authors of the NCGE really use English this way? One of the primary meanings of "standard" is a ... accepted as "standard," i.e. no non-standard instance is imaginable, it seems
00
}
}>
}>> In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently }>> discussed, and while doing research on the matter I found the }>> following:
}>>
}>> From
}>> http://www.linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-most-
}>
}>> In the newsgroup alt.english.usage , the term "dialect" was recently }>> discussed, and while doing research on the matter I found the }>> following:
}>>
}>> From
}>> http://www.linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-most-
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