before vs until?

Question

hi..

I'm difficult to understand below sentence as non-native.

"she had had 3 plastic surgeries in the hospital (before) she had a beautiful face."

could you replace 'before' in above sentence with 'until'?

thank you in advance.

Pinenut · Accepted Answer

Anonymoushi..

I'm difficult to understand below sentence as non-native.

"she had had 3 plastic surgeries in the hospital (before) she had a beautiful face."

could you replace 'before' in above sentence with 'until'?

thank you in advance.

Hi,

Yes to your question. In fact, 'until' is better than 'before' in the context.

'until' means a state persists or an activity continues as long as a condition is not met and then stops if and when it is.

pine

CalifJim · Answer

You can use either "before" or "until", but they mean slightly different things. Because of the slight difference you could not use "until" with the exact wording you have.

I'm going to change the words a little to emphasize the typical usage in these patterns, and I'll explain why below.

1 She had to have three plastic surgeries before she was satisfied with her face.
2 She continued to have plastic surgery until she was satisfied with her face.

In the first sentence, the goal of a beautiful face could not be obtained in just one surgery, or even in two. It required three surgeries before the goal was reached. The speaker of this sentence is focusing on the point in time at which all three surgeries are finished and is telling us that that was what was required to reach the goal.

In the second sentence, a process of having multiple surgeries is described. We don't know how many surgeries; we only know that the process continued until the goal was reached. The speaker of this sentence is focusing on the period of time in which the surgeries took place. This is why it is awkward to mention a specific number of surgeries and then say "until". If we already know (and state) the number of surgeries, then we don't have a situation in which we are describing a continuing process, so "until" doesn't make sense.

CJ

Pinenut · Answer

CalifJimYou can use either "before" or "until", but they mean slightly different things. Because of the slight difference you could not use "until" with the exact wording you have.

The rest is deleted..

CJ

CalifJim,

I failed to understand your logic.

Now I set a condition, which was to have a beautiful face.

I had one plastic surgery and I didn't have a beautiful face. [The preset condition was not met.]
I had another surgery and the condition still was not met.
I had the 3rd surgery and I finally had a beautiful face. I didn't need more surgery.

Therefore, I'd had three plastic surgeries until I had a beautiful face.

I hope you will see why I disagree with you.

pine

Jussive · Answer

Pinenut
CalifJimYou can use either "before" or "until", but they mean slightly different things. Because of the slight difference you could not use "until" with the exact wording you have.

The rest is deleted..

CJ

CalifJim,

I failed to understand your logic.

Now I set a condition, which was to have a beautiful face.

I had one plastic surgery and I didn't have a beautiful face. [The preset condition was not met.]
I had another surgery and the condition still was not met.
I had the 3rd surgery and I finally had a beautiful face. I didn't need more surgery.

Therefore, I'd had three plastic surgeries until I had a beautiful face.

I hope you will see why I disagree with you.

pine

I agree with CJ, but please don't throw a little hissy fit like last time.

If I say, 'Shoot until you hit the target,' you may well shoot 100 times before you hit it. However, if I say, 'Shoot three times until you hit the target,' what then happens after you miss your third attempt?

Jussive · Answer

'Until' is used to pinpoint the amount of time a process took before an outcome. If we already identify that amount then we don't need 'until'.

Paco2004 · Answer

Helllo Pine

I came to the park at 13:00 and sat down on a bench.
Jane came to see me at 14:00 and I stood up.
"I had sat on the bench (for an hour) until Jane came".

I ate an apple at 13:15. I ate another apple 13:30. I ate the other apple 13:45.
Jane came to see me at 14:00.
"I had eaten three apples before Jane came."

"Until" is used to indicate the end point of a continuous state, so it is used usually with a stative verb.
If a dynamic verb is used in a sense of repetition, until can go with it.
"The warrior had shot arrows until the enemy ran away"
In this case "until" gives a notion of incessant repetition of "shoot an arrow".
Do you think having only three surgeries are incessant repetition of "have a surgery"?

paco

Pieanne · Answer

Yes, it's the "three" that doesn't fit with "until", right? You could say "she had surgery for as long as it took her to have a pretty face" (no number), but "she had 3 surgeries before etc..."

(it makes me think of the present perfect; you'll say "I've written 3 letters this morning", but not "I've been writing 3 letters this morning". Please forgive me if I'm erring)

Pinenut · Answer

Paco2004Helllo Pine

I came to the park at 13:00 and sat down on a bench.
Jane came to see me at 14:00 and I stood up.
"I had sat on the bench (for an hour) until Jane came".

I ate an apple at 13:15. I ate another apple 13:30. I ate the other apple 13:45.
Jane came to see me at 14:00.
"I had eaten three apples before Jane came."

"Until" is used to indicate the end point of a continuous state, so it is used usually with a stative verb.
If a dynamic verb is used in a sense of repetition, until can go with it.
"The warrior had shot arrows until the enemy ran away"
In this case "until" gives a notion of incessant repetition of "shoot an arrow".
Do you think having only three surgeries are incessant repetition of "have a surgery"?

paco

paco,

I see your point.

I had had many surgeries until I had a beautiful face.

Is it OK with you?

What about 100 surgeries? Is it incessant enough for you?

pine

Paco2004 · Answer

"Have a surgery" sounds to be a one-time action. So "I had had many surgeries until I had a beautiful face" also sounds unnatural. But somehow "I had repeated surgeries until I had a beautiful face" sounds natural. Interesting.

paco

CalifJim · Answer

it makes me think of the present perfect

Pieanne,
I thought the same thing. And there's also the idea that you don't use an adverb showing a specific point in time with the present perfect, as in "*I have written three letters last Tuesday". In a general way, the "before"/"until" discussion is about similar effects.
CJ

before vs until?

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