Been

Question

Talking to a shopkeeper.  I say:I've been coming here for so long, but I don't even know your name!Is this sentence okay?Thanks!

Canadian45 · Accepted Answer

PreciousJones....................Talking to a shopkeeper, I say 'I've been coming here (for) so long, but I don't even know your name!'

Is this sentence okay? yes

BillJ · Answer

PreciousJonesTalking to a shopkeeper. I say: I've been coming here for so long, but I don't even know your name!Is this sentence okay?

It's OK, but not especially natural. One of these might be better:

I''ve been coming here for so long that I ought to know your name by now.
I've been coming here for a long time, but I don't even know your name yet.

BillJ

Canadian45 · Answer

BillJ.....One of these might be better: My ***, 'everyone' is ending sentences with a colon now.
I''ve been coming here for so long that I ought to know your name by now.
I've been coming here for a long time, but I don't even know your name yet.

RandomGuy · Answer

canadian45My ***, 'everyone' is ending sentences with a colon now.

What's wrong with the colon in his sentence? I would carp about colons used after fragments, not sentences.

Canadian45 · Answer

Aspara GusWhat's wrong with the colon in his sentence? I would carp about colons used after fragments, not sentences.

Since when can you end a complete sentence that's also the end of a line with a colon? (That's what periods are for.)
It's just as wrong as writing 'I was late for work today:'

CalifJim · Answer

canadian45colon

Here's a brief summary of your posts on the colon:

"The part before the colon should be able to stand by itself as a grammatically complete sentence."
"It is [plural] like yours that . . ." or "It are [plural] like yours that . . ."
"You can't end a sentence with a colon."

Just saying.

CJ

Canadian45 · Answer

CalifJimHere's a brief summary of your posts on the colon:
"The part before the colon should be able to stand by itself as a grammatically complete sentence."
"You can't end a sentence with a colon."

Thanks for your response Maybe we can reach some common ground.

Here's a brief summary of your posts on the colon:
"The part before the colon should be able to stand by itself as a grammatically complete sentence." I believe that is still 'universally accepted'.

"You can't end a sentence with a colon." That seems to be the main point of contention. Of course the period has long been the standard way of ending a sentence, and still is the standard way. I have a hard time accepting your sentence-ending colon above, even though what follows your sentence-ending colon relates to it. But by that logic many, if not most, sentences in a paragraph could end with colons, because the sentences generally relate to and expand on each other. I learned my English a long time ago and ideas might well be changing. If so. I think that change is fairly recent, because I have been hanging around ESL sites for about 10 years and don't recall such a flurry of sentence-ending colons until recently. One sees a lot of hybrid forms, which is typical of an era of change.

You are left with only one option: Press on until you have mastered it. http://www.bristol.ac.uk/arts/exercises/grammar/grammar_tutorial/page_04.htm

We have a colon in the middle and a period at the end. Is that one sentence or two? If it's one sentence, why does the second part start with a capital P? If it's two sentences, why don't they both end in periods? Or why don't they both end in colons? Probably that's because colons are not the usual way of ending sentences.
What are your thoughts? Do you have any strong feelings on the matter.

CalifJim · Answer

canadian45"The part before the colon should be able to stand by itself as a grammatically complete sentence." I believe that is still 'universally accepted'.

Yes, I believe so. That's why I was surprised that you had also written, "You can't end a sentence with a colon".

canadian45I have a hard time accepting your sentence-ending colon above, even though what follows your sentence-ending colon relates to it.

Yes, I know your view on this, but it introduces a list — granted, a short list of only two items, but a list nonetheless — and one of the functions of the colon is to introduce a list.

canadian45by that logic many, if not most, sentences in a paragraph could end with colons, because the sentences generally relate to and expand on each other.

You've got me there. Still, I think there are differences in sentential relationships that point to the possibility of a colon in one case and a period in another. The following example illustrates this.

canadian45You are left with only one option: Press on until you have mastered it.

As usual, the colon here points to the following information as if to say, "Here it is!" Accordingly, I see the example above as

You are left with only one option, and this is it. Look here! --- >>>> Press on until you have mastered it.

canadian45If it's one sentence, why does the second part start with a capital P?

I'm surprised that your example comes from the UK because my understanding is that in the UK the standard procedure is not to capitalize the sentence after the colon — unless (Can you believe it?) there is more than one related sentence after the colon.

In any case, the capitalization of the first word of a sentence after a colon is a feature of American style and always has been as far as I know.

There are many uses of capitalization. If we can have a rule that says that proper names must be capitalized, we can just as well have a rule that says sentences after colons must be capitalized.

canadian45If it's two sentences, why don't they both end in periods?

Because the information in the first sentence has, semantically, a 'pointer' to the second sentence. If the pointer word does not occur explicitly, the author may feel even more compelled to use the colon as a means of indicating that he wants the reader to take that sentence as the bearer of a 'pointer'.

canadian45Do you have any strong feelings on the matter?

No. I really don't. I always have to consult a style manual on such matters, and I'm as likely to follow the advice of one as to follow the advice of another, even if they are contradictory. My real interest is grammatical structures, not punctuation.

I suspect that most students that visit our forum here will be required to follow one particular style manual when they come to the point of writing their Ph.D. dissertations and/or scholarly articles where exactitude on these matters is demanded. And very few of our visitors are at that stage yet in their academic careers.

CJ

Canadian45 · Answer

Yes, I believe so. That's why I was surprised that you had also written, "You can't end a sentence with a colon".
By "sentence" I don't just mean something that can stand as an independent clause. I mean a sentence that is the end of that line on the page. -------

but a list nonetheless — and one of the functions of the colon is to introduce a list. No one disputes that. But the list historically follows the colon immediately on the same line. Otherwise, a period is the usual way of ending the line above the list. But I do admit that the way that I think is wrong is now showing up. Does that mean it is now correct or is it still wrong?-----

I'm surprised that your example comes from the UK because my understanding is that in the UK the standard procedure is not to capitalize the sentence after the colon — unless (Can you believe it?) there is more than one related sentence after the colon.
That was just by chance. There are many examples of that in Canada.-----

In any case, the capitalization of the first word of a sentence after a colon is a feature of American style and always has been as far as I know. Of course that is odd if it is considered to be the same sentence.-------

canadian45If it's two sentences, why don't they both end in periods?

Because the information in the first sentence has, semantically, a 'pointer' to the second sentence. If the pointer word does not occur explicitly, the author may feel even more compelled to use the colon as a means of indicating that he wants the reader to take that sentence as the bearer of a 'pointer'.
Of course my objection is not to the mid-sentence colon, but to the end colon.------

canadian45Do you have any strong feelings on the matter?

No. I really don't. I always have to consult a style manual on such matters, and I'm as likely to follow the advice of one as to follow the advice of another, even if they are contradictory. My real interest is grammatical structures, not punctuation.
I understand that, but punctuuation is part of language. But it appears that this whole issue is a big mess. So from that standpoint I can somewhat understand your objection to 'strict rules'. In the midst of the mess, I rely on the old rules that I learned long ago. But it probably isn't worth my trouble to try to resolve the mess. So the easiest thing probably is for me to ignore the issue unless someone specifically asks about it. So, in that way you win.

BillJ · Answer

For ***'s sake, canadian 45, it wasn't supposed to be literary prose, but just the usual text book style of using a colon before giving a number of examples; and you know it (or at least you ought to). Just look in one of your grammar books and you'll see that's how it's done. Or don't you read such books?

The colon in my post precedes two alternative sentences given as examples, and is the correct way to set out such things. And of course the colon was at the end of a line. Where else would you expect it to be?

I can scarcely believe you've made such a huge fuss about nothing!

And worse, you've probably left the OP thinking what the heck is going on here.

BillJ

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