Beat the ductch

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beat the DutchIs it a modern idiom (In use as well as origin)?What does it mean? Is it US?

Usenet · Accepted Answer

[nq:1]beat the Dutch Is it a modern idiom (In use as well as origin)? What does it mean? Is it US?[/nq]
The phrase that I know is "If that don't beat the Dutch!" and it means "How amazing!" Google only knows of it in two early 20th-century novels so that would be good evidence it is no longer in use. How much farther it goes back I don't know it can be very hard to identify when phrases began.
A similar phrase that is still used is "If that don't beat all!" Google shows some others, too:
If that don't beat a hog a'flying!
if that don't beat a hen a'crowin
if that don't beat all ****
If That Don't Beat the Devil
My guess is that "Dutch" was a substitute for the taboo word "Devil."

There may be some other expression "beat the Dutch" that I don't know. Search hits for that look like sporting results, along the lines of, "They beat the Dutch 3-1 after extra time in the final."

Best wishes Donna Richoux
An American living in the Netherlands

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]beat the Dutch Is it a modern idiom (In use as well as origin)?[/nq]
Of course it's modern, historically the Dutch always beat the English. (under their Memorable admiral Van Broom)
The English even had to take an orange (named Williamandmary) for king, to beat the Irish for them,
Jan

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[nq:2]beat the Dutch Is it a modern idiom (In use as well as origin)?[/nq]
[nq:1]Of course it's modern, historically the Dutch always beat the English. (under their Memorable admiral Van Broom) The English even had to take an orange (named Williamandmary) for king, to beat the Irish for them,[/nq]
Who were, of course mainly French.
m.

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[nq:2]beat the Dutch Is it a modern idiom (In use as well as origin)? What does it mean? Is it US?[/nq]
[nq:1]The phrase that I know is "If that don't beat the Dutch!" and it means "How amazing!" Google only knows ... **** If That Don't Beat the Devil My guess is that "Dutch" was a substitute for the taboo word "Devil."[/nq]
Seems a good guess to me.
Spruijt's 'Total Dutch' doesn't list the expression,

Jan

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]The phrase that I know is "If that don't beat ... that "Dutch" was a substitute for the taboo word "Devil."[/nq]
[nq:1]Seems a good guess to me. Spruijt's 'Total Dutch' doesn't list the expression,[/nq]
"Dutch" has an interesting history in English. I posted what John Ciardi wrote before, but it seems appropriate to repeat this quotation from his "A Browser's Dictionary."
Dutch - (MD dutsch , Dutch. Akin to Ger. Deutsch , German.)
1.Of the Netherlands. 2. Archaic in Brit. but surviving inAm. slang , German. So Dutch Schulz, Prohibition era NYC gangster of German immigrant parents, born, as I recall, Arthur Fliegelheimer.Historic: The Dutch and the English, near neighbors, once dealt with mutual respect, many words of Dutch origin passing into English. Bear in mind that bad weather could easily drive Dutch fishermen into British channel ports and British fishermen into Dutch ports. Then, in what seems to have been the early XVII, the adjective Dutch began to acquire loutish connotations in English, and these have persisted except in such straightforwardly identifying forms as Dutch doors , Dutch oven , etc.

Some typical uses, among many others: Dutch courage* False courage brought on by drunkenness. *Dutch treat* An invitation to a meal, drink, the theater, with the guest expected to pay his share. But let?s Dutch it = let?s each pay his share. *Dutch uncle A well-intentioned but boorishly blunt adviser. in Dutch In trouble. (Perh. associated with the sort dressing down one gets from a Dutch uncle.)
Pennsylvania Dutch ( Dutch for German .) XVII & XVIII German and Swiss-German settlers in Pennsylvania, primarily the plain folk of the Mennonite and Amish religions, at root, Forms of family monasticism.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]snipagge Seems a good guess to me. Spruijt's 'Total Dutch' doesn't list the expression,[/nq]
[nq:1]"Dutch" has an interesting history in English. I posted what John Ciardi wrote before, but it seems appropriate to repeat ... slang , German. So Dutch Schulz, Prohibition era NYC gangster of German immigrant parents, born, as I recall, Arthur Fliegelheimer.[/nq]
Spruijt's monopgraph 'Total Dutch' I mentioned to Donna has over a thousand entries for 'Dutch' in English and American.
[nq:1]Historic: The Dutch and the English, near neighbors, once dealt with mutual respect, many words of Dutch origin passing into ... and these have persisted except in such straightforwardly identifying forms as Dutch doors , Dutch oven , etc.[/nq]
There were three major Anglo-Dutch wars in second half of the 17-th century, which the English all lost. And yes, that is Memorable to them. (Admiral Van Broom and all that)
The Netherlands were a major European power then.
What seems to have irked the English most
is that they never got the opportunity to even the score. (Not that they had a right to it,
having been beaten three times running)
Soon after the third Anglo-Dutch war Williamandmary became king of England, thus making further wars impossible for a long time. And when it finally was time for the next war
(because of Dutch support for the American insurrection) the Netherlands had become just a small unimportant country, hardly worth beating up.
[nq:1]Some typical uses, among many others: Dutch courage* False courage brought on by drunkenness. *Dutch treat* An invitation to a ... boorishly blunt adviser. *in Dutch In trouble. (Perh. associated with the sort dressing down one gets from a Dutch uncle.)[/nq]
Yes, and ~~lots~~ of others.
[nq:1]Pennsylvania Dutch ( Dutch for German .) XVII & XVIII German and Swiss-German settlers in Pennsylvania, primarily the plain folk of the Mennonite and Amish religions, at root, Forms of family monasticism.[/nq]
American 'Dutch' refers as often to German immigrant usage, from 'Deutsch', as to the original (New Amsterdam) Dutch.

Best,
Jan

"In matters of commerce,
the fault of the Dutch,
is giving to little,
and asking too much." (outsmarted there as well, it seems)

Usenet · Answer

[nq:1]American 'Dutch' refers as often to German immigrant usage, from 'Deutsch', as to the original (New Amsterdam) Dutch.[/nq]
My experience, away from New York, is that "Dutch" always referred to Germans in some fashion. The expression "dumb Dutchman" was always aimed at Germans.

Usenet · Answer

[nq:2]beat the Dutch Is it a modern idiom (In use as well as origin)? What does it mean? Is it US?[/nq]
[nq:1]The phrase that I know is "If that don't beat the Dutch!" and it means "How amazing!" Google only knows ... that look like sporting results, along the lines of, "They beat the Dutch 3-1 after extra time in the final."[/nq]
Of those expressions you quote, The Century Dictionary of 1895 ( www.century-dictionary.com ) has only "To beat the Dutch":
(quote, from page 1805, under the entry for the adjective and noun "Dutch")
To beat the Dutch, to be very strange or surprising ; excel anything before known or hear of : said of a state- ment, an occurrence, etc., usually in the form "That beats the Dutch." (Colloq., northern U. S.)
(end quote)
In addition, it has "To beat ***-fighting":
(quote, from the entry for "***-fighting")
To beat ***-fighting, to go beyond one's expectations ; surpass everything. (Colloq.)
The Squire faltered out, "Well, this beats cockfighting ! the man's as mad as a March hare !"
Bulwer, My Novel, iii. 11.
(end quote)
I also found another couple of interesting entries:
(quote, from page 1580, under the entry for "devil")

The devil rides on a fiddlestick, a proverbial expres- sion, apparently meant to express something new, unex- pected, and strange.
Heigh, heigh ! the devil rides upon a fiddlestick ; What's the matter ? Shak., 1 Hen. IV., ii. 4.

To whip the devil round the stump, to get round or dodge a difficulty or dilemma by means of a fabricated ex- cuse or explanation.
(end quote)
(quote, under the entry for "tattoo")
The devil's tattoo, a beating or drumming with the fin- gers upon a table or other piece of furniture : an indica- tion of impatience or absence of mind.
Lord Steyne made no reply except by beating the Devil's tattoo and biting his nails. Thackeray, Vanity Fair, xlviii.

(end quote)

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

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