Backshifting concern

Question

Are both forms of these sentences correct? If so, the ones with 'were' and 'improved' considered back shifting?

Results showed that subjects are diabetic.
Results showed that subjects were diabetic.

Results indicated that apples improve diabetes.
Results indicated that apples improved diabetes.

Thanks.

Wilpeter · Accepted Answer

I don't believe backshifting applies outside of the restating of quoted information.
Margaret said, “My results show that the subjects are diabetic.”
Backshifted: “Margaret told us that her results showed that the subjects were diabetic.”

Cool Breeze · Answer

wilpeterI don't believe backshifting applies outside of the restating of quoted information.Margaret said, “My results show that the subjects are diabetic.”Backshifted: “Margaret told us that her results showed that the subjects were diabetic.”

I certainly don't disagree, but I'd just like to mention that maybe Anonymous is referring to a grammatical phenomenon called the sequence of tenses by some grammarians. The sequence of tenses is about the totally illogical use of tenses which is sometimes observed in English. Even if someone lives in New York at this very moment, we can say: I knew that he lived in New York.

This is impossible in many other languages.

CB

Anonymous · Answer

Thanks a lot for your input.

Cool BreezeEven if someone lives in New York at this very moment, we can say: I knew that he lived in New York.

Yes. Even though we can say that to refer that he presently lives in New York, would it be possible to use ‘live’ in that sentence instead of ‘lived’ since he still lives there?

I Knew that he lives in New York.

I don’t think ‘lives' would be possible, maybe because the word ‘knew’ does not allow its use. Does it allow that?

CalifJim · Answer

Cool BreezeEven if someone lives in New York at this very moment, we can say: I knew that he lived in New York.

I would phrase it differently. If someone lives in New York at this very moment, we must say I knew that he lived in New York, and not I knew that he lives in New York, because the latter is illogical. You can't say I knew (then) what is true now. That would be knowing the future, quite a miraculous feat.

CJ

Ivanhr · Answer

CalifJimI knew that he lived in New York, and not I knew that he lives in New York, because the latter is illogical.

Right. Of course, one could argue that English is inconsistent when it comes to tense shifting.

I knew that he lived in New York. (backshifting)

but

I will help you when I ~~will~~ come to New York. (no forward shifting here)

CalifJim · Answer

IvanhrI will help you when I ~~will~~ come to New York.

It seems that every language handles this "problem" (if that's what it is) differently. What to do after "when" (and quite a few other subordinators of time)?

English uses the present indicative. Spanish uses the present subjunctive. French uses the future. And who knows what other "solutions" there are in the world's languages?

Apparently English lets "when" do all the work.

CJ

Cool Breeze · Answer

CalifJim If someone lives in New York at this very moment, we must say I knew that he lived in New York, and not I knew that he lives in New York, because the latter is illogical. You can't say I knew (then) what is true now. That would be knowing the future, quite a miraculous feat. CJ

Not at all in my native language. As far as I know it's perfectly logical to say I knew that he lives in New York even in English. Someone told me yesterday that he lives in New York at the moment. The present tense doesn't mean I know anything about the future. It simply indicates that I knew yesterday that he lives in New York at the moment I spoke and at the moment someone told me about it.

The present tense is possible even in English even though the past tense / the preterite may be more common. I don't know a single grammarian who considers the present tense incorrect in my sentence. Why should lives refer to the future in this sentence anyway? Even though the simple present can refer to the future in some contexts, it usually refers to the present.

I'm sorry about the underlining in the first paragraph. There's something wrong with the editor and I am simply unable to underline only the words I want to.

But if you disagree with me, CJ, have a beer one me.

CalifJim · Answer

Cool BreezeI don't know a single grammarian who considers the present tense incorrect in my sentence.

Well, now you do!

(I'm taking liberties with who is considered "a grammarian", of course.)

Cool BreezeThe present tense doesn't mean I know anything about the future. It simply indicates that I knew yesterday that he lives in New York at the moment I spoke and at the moment someone told me about it.

That looks like a conjuring trick to me. I knew yesterday that he would be living in New York today is more like it. In short, I am unable to see it from your point of view at this time. It's as if I'm looking at one of those Necker cubes, and the alternate interpretation is not popping out for me.

Cool BreezeWhy should lives refer to the future in this sentence anyway?

It's the future of the past, to be more exact.

Here's another of my explanations of it with diagrams and everything.

Thanks for the beer!

CJ

GPY · Answer

I can accept "I knew that he lives in New York" if "knew" refers to the very recent past and it is known (or reasonably assumed) that his residence cannot have changed in the meantime. I wouldn't accept it when referring to knowledge in the more distant past.

Anonymous · Answer

Hi CJ, I am glad you jumped in. I have a few questions on this that I would like you to clarify.

CalifJim we must say I knew that he lived in New York, and not I knew that he lives in New York, because the latter is illogical. You can't say I knew (then) what is true now. That would be knowing the future, quite a miraculous feat

Question 1: Why is it not possible to use ‘live’ in this sentence when the situation is still true. You mentioned because of the word ‘knew’, which makes sense. But why is it possible when ‘knew’ is replaced with ‘heard’’?

"I heard that he lives in New York"

Question 2: Are the two form of sentences that I initially inquired about related to this topic of back shifting or not? If not, are they a matter of real time or viewpoint, and thus this issue of back shifting does not apply to them?

We have talked about this back shifting topic and I have been using it as you advised because it is most appropriate and natural but sometimes I am not sure if sentences are related to this topic, such as the ones I asked about, so I get confused.

Thank you!!

Backshifting concern

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