Asking for an answer again - passivity and intransivity?

Question

Hi, I diid not receive any answer. I would like an answer to this please

Hi,

I am not sure how could one konw if the participle 'hung' is used intransitively here. This part is from my post in a thread named "three 'mixed bag' questions." I think the word "Does" should be replaced by "Is" at the start of my question. Sorry.

Does this sentence correct? Is the word 'surfaced' an intransitive verb here? A similar form (as far as I can tell) was told to me as intransitive. That being this: The photo was hung on the wall.

Nothing constructive (or no constructive suggestion) was surfaced at our last meeting.

The sentence "The photo was hung on the wall" -- the verb "was hung" looks like what I could call (if I could say that) a passive in form but that is not a true passive. Does that mean the word 'hung' is an adjective?

I think we could make it passive by writing it this way: The photo was hung by Joe yesterday.

Then, how would I be able to know whether the "hung" used in on context differs from the one used another context? The intransitive verb with the auxiliary verb "was" seems to be confusing in that respect.

Clive · Accepted Answer

Hi,
I am not sure how could one konw if the participle 'hung' is used intransitively here. This part is from my post in a thread named "three 'mixed bag' questions." I think the word "Does" should be replaced by "Is" at the start of my question.<<< Yes Sorry.

Does this sentence correct? Is the word 'surfaced' an intransitive verb here? A similar form (as far as I can tell) was told to me as intransitive. That being this: The photo was hung on the wall.

Nothing constructive (or no constructive suggestion) was surfaced at our last meeting. This is not correct. You can't say 'Something was surfaced', just as you can't say 'Tom surfaced something'.

The sentence "The photo was hung on the wall" -- the verb "was hung" looks like what I could call (if I could say that) a passive in form but that is not a true passive. Does that mean the word 'hung' is an adjective? It could, depending on the context.

I think we could make it passive by writing it this way: The photo was hung by Joe yesterday. Yes

Then, how would I be able to know whether the "hung" used in on context differs from the one used another context? The intransitive verb with the auxiliary verb "was" seems to be confusing in that respect.

Let's try this. Write a brief paragraph, giving some context. Then near the end, use the phrase 'was hung'. And see if the meaning is unclear to you. If so, post it and we can discuss it. OK?

Best wishes, Clive

CalifJim · Answer

You can have:
Somebody hung the photo on the wall.
You cannot have:
*Somebody surfaced a suggestion at the meeting.
The reason is that hang is transitive and surface is intransitive.
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Therefore, you can have:
The photo was hung on the wall (by somebody). [This is a true passive, contrary to what you claim above. Without the by clause it's called an agentless passive.] [There is action here.]
But you cannot have:
*A suggestion was surfaced at the meeting (by somebody).
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With intransitive hang, you can have:
The photo hung on the wall. =~ The photo was hanging on the wall. [There is no action here.]

Being intransitive, these cannot be made passive.
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Note that the verb hang does not have the same possibilities as the verb break, and I sense that your question really involves situations more commonly seen with a verb like break, which, unlike hang, has a past participle that is identical to an adjective.
Transitive break:
Jack broke the glass. [Active voice.]
The glass was broken by Jack. [Passive voice with an agent.]
>The glass was broken. [Agentless passive -- action.]
Adjectival:
>The glass was broken. [No action. broken is an adjective.]
Intransitive break:
The glass broke. [Active voice. No agent.]
(No passive possible.)
was broken can be thought of with or without action. was hung cannot be thought of like that. was hung can only represent action. It is not used as an adjective to describe things that are hanging on a wall, for example.

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I think your real question is how to know which of the two meanings marked '>' above applies. The answer is context. The isolated words are ambiguous. Only the situation in which it is used can determine the meaning.
The glass was broken when Tom accidentally dropped it on the floor. [Agentless passive -- action.]
I noticed a glass and a plate on the table. The glass was broken, but the plate was fine. [No action. broken is an adjective.]
CJ

Anonymous · Answer

Thank you, CalifJim and Clive. CalifJim, personally I think your answer should be framed and posted on the wall so it can be reviewed by others as needs arise. I am sure this is one of the best answers/responses I have seen lately or possibly as far as I can remember from these forums.
Kudos to you, CalifJim.

Anonymous · Answer

Hi, I have two what looks like intransitive verbs, "vanish" and "consist." What I don't understand is how they be in forms like "Cheap houses are vanishing in this neighborhood" and "The group consisting of fifty people are holding a meeting again."

I think we can write "Cheap houses have vanished from the neighborhood" but with the verb form "are vanishing"?? Is that still intransitive?

How about "consisting" after a noun? Is the use still intransitive? Help.

CalifJim · Answer

Let the curly brackets { } mean "a form of".
Thus, {be} means "a form of be"; that is, {be} means any of be, being, been, is, are, am, was, were.
-ing represents the present participle form of a verb, e.g., being, having, walking, taking, seeing, hiding, ...
-en represents the past participle form of a verb, e.g., been, had, walked, taken, seen, hidden, ...
{be} + -ing creates progressive tenses (also called continuous tenses). Intransitive verbs may occur in this form.
{be} + -en creates passive tenses. Intransitive verbs may not occur in this form.
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are vanishing is {be} + -ing, so it is a progressive tense, not a passive. It is completely grammatical as is.
are vanished is {be} + -en, so it is a passive tense. It is ungrammatical.
___
The use of an -ing form after a noun is adjectival. It is a short way of adding a relative clause to describe the noun. As with the progressive tenses, this -ing form is permitted for all verbs, whether transitive or intransitive.

the group consisting of fifty people = the group which consists of fifty people
the girl wearing the red sweater = the girl who is wearing the red sweater
the book belonging to Arthur = the book that belongs to Arthur
the man carrying the water = the man who is carrying the water
____________
{have} + -en creates the perfect tenses. Both transitive and intransitive verbs may occur in the perfect tenses.
have vanished is {have} + -en; has vanished is also {have} + -en; and so on.
have vanished, have seen, has thrown, had done, has gone, ... are perfect.
{have} + -ing is ungrammatical for all verbs.
________________________________
I'm adding the rest just because it might interest you. It's not related directly to your question.

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To make a verb tense that is both perfect and passive, place the {have} first.

{have} + -en PLUS {be} + -en EQUALS {have} + been + -en, because the -en form of be is been.
has been saved, had been seen, have been done, has been thrown, ... are perfect passive.
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To make a verb that is both perfect and progressive, place the {have} first.
{have} + -en PLUS {be} + ing EQUALS {have} + been + -ing, because the -en form of be is been.
have been seeing, had been doing, has been walking, has been taking, ... are perfect progressive.
____
To make a verb both passive and progressive, place the {be} + -ing first, the {be} + -en next.
{be} + -ing PLUS {be} + -en EQUALS {be} + being + -en, because the -ing form of be is being.
is being seen, were being done, are being saved, was being thrown, ... are passive progressive.
____
For perfect passive progressive tenses,
{have} + -en PLUS {be} + -ing PLUS {be} + -en EQUALS {have} + been + being + -en.
have been being taken, had been being seen, has been being saved, ... are perfect passive progressive.
CJ

Clive · Answer

Hi,

I have two what looks like intransitive verbs, "vanish" and "consist." What I don't understand is how they be in forms like "Cheap houses are vanishing in this neighborhood" and "The group consisting of fifty people are holding a meeting again."

I think we can write "Cheap houses have vanished from the neighborhood" but with the verb form "are vanishing"?? Is that still intransitive?

How about "consisting" after a noun? Is the use still intransitive?

Let me add a couple of simple examples to what has been said.

Let's assume that you can see Tom, a church and some houses.
Let's assume a thick mist descends and slowly makes it impossible for you to see things.
You can say things like this.
Tom is vanishing.
The church is vanishing.
The houses are vanishing.
ie There is no reason why you can't say that things are vanishing.
Yes, all these examples are intransitive. There are no objects in the sentences.

I bought an expensive house. 'Expensive' is an adjective.
I bought a house consisting of 6 rooms. 'Consisting of 6 rooms' is an adjectival phrase. There is no object involved.

Best wishes, Clive

Anonymous · Answer

Thank you, CalifJim and Clive. If I can compare you guys to doctors, you are very good doctors -- the questions have been bothering for a long time and you took care of it instantly with your answers. I especially liked the responses I got from CalifJim on this one and of course, I think Clive is in a league of his own. Thank you again.

Asking for an answer again - passivity and intransivity?

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