As much as

Question

I don't like him as much as you.Dear Mirium, here is my analysis. 1-a. She doesn't sing as well as me.  1-b. She doesn't sing as well as I do.  In 1-a, an object pronoun is used after 'as', according to Michael Swan, this is an informal style, whereas in 1-b, subject+verb is used after 'as', it is more formal.  As you can see, in your example #2  #2. I don't like him as much as you.  2-a. I don't like him as much as you do. ( 'you' is a subject)  2-b. I don't like him as much as you. ('you' is an object pronoun)  2-a and 2-b are possible variants of #2. Have you noticed that we have a subject 'you' and an object 'you'?  In 2-a, both of us like him, but I like him less and you like him more. Ambuguity is cleared out in 2-a because 'you' is a subject.  What are the two equal things you compare now?  1. I don't like him. (subject)  2. You don't like him. (subject)  You are comparing who likes him more, You or I ? In 2-b, I don't think it's usual to regard 'you' as a subject. For example, He doesn't like her as much as we. (Sounds weird to my ears). You either say 'He doesn't like her as much as we do or he doesn't like her as much us. So I don't think 2-b is that ambiguous. (It could be.) So 2-b means I don't like him as much as I don't like you.  What are the two equal things you compare now?  1. I don't like him. (object)  2. I don't like you, either. (object) It's the object of the main verb that is compared. In other words, I dislike him more, and I dislike you less. TransformationStep 1I don't like him as much as you don't like him.   &gt; I think this sentence is gramatically strange. 'As + Adj/Adv + as' is used to compare two equal things. Here in the sentence, you compare the feeling of 'dislike him'.  Step 2I don't [like him as much as you like him.]  &gt;'don't' negates the idea in my brackets. Is the negation scope here?  Step 3Then, I'd apply 'pro-verb' substitution to the latter 'like him', and then it generates a new variants,  I don't [like him as much as you do.]  So the latter 'like him' is within negation scope. What do you think, Mirium?

Miriam · Accepted Answer

Pastel, I have a headache already! ~L~
Let's go step by step

I agree with what you said about the first pair of sentences (me/I do).

Your other example, "I don't like him as much as you" can certainly be ambiguous; the two interpretations you posted are possible.

I agree with your analysis of 2-a.
I'd say, however, that the two sentences would be affirmative rather than negative:
"I like him."
"You like him."

Now, 2-b is the sentence that may be ambiguous, as I've just said.
The personal pronoun "you" has that same form as subject and object. 'You' and 'it' and the only two personal pronouns that have the same form as subject and object; the other pronouns change. Anyway, since you don't have an auxiliary very accompanying "you", you are right to say that the objective form is used. But, be careful; the fact that an objective form is used in this type of sentence depends only on the fact that "as" is a preposition, so when it is followed by a pronoun, it will be an objective pronoun. You can choose between that and a finite clause such as "You do". This example will probably be more clear with other pronouns (those who have different subject and object forms).
"I don't like him as much as you" can mean either that you like him more than I do or that I like you more than I like him.

"He doesn't like her as much as we" sounds weird to you because it is not grammatically correct.
"He doesn't like her as much as us" and "He doesn't like her as much as we do", on the other hand, are correct.
The meaning of "He doesn't like her as much as we do" is clear: we like her more than he does.
The meaning of "He doesn't like her as much as us" is, again, ambiguous. The two possible interpretations are "we like her more than he does", as in the previous example, or "he likes us more than he likes her".

I'm not sure what you mean by the "transformation" part of your post. but let's give that a try as well.

Step 1- "I don't like him as much as you don't like him."
I would avoid that construction if I were you! It isn't correct.

Step 2- "I don't like him as much as you like him."
This sentence is correct, but it can be improved to avoid redundancy.

Step 3- "I don't like him as much as you do."
This is perfect, but it does not mean what you think. The mening of this sentence is the sentence in step #2.
- We both like him, but you like him more than I do.
- We both like him, but I like him less than you do.
- We both like him, but I don't like him so/as much as you do.

The three sentences have the same meaning. In your example, the negation applies only to the first main verb, the verb whose subject is "I".

One more thing:
"I don't like him as much as you do" and "I dislike him as much as you do" have different meanings.

I'm not sure this is what you were looking for. If I misunderstod your question, let me know?

Miriam

PASTEL · Answer

Dear Mirium,

I'm sorry for that breathless post. Are you any better now? Have you caught some Z's? You didn't misunderstand my question at all, this is what I need. I understand the meanings of this ambiguous sentence, and I was trying to analysize it from a grammatical point of view. I'm looking for your positive confirm, or some correction that might cause ant misunderstanding.

Compare these two,

1. I don't like him as much as you.
2. He doesn't like her as much as us.

I've noticed that you mentioned 'you' is viewed as an object pronoun on the condition that the previous 'as' functions as a preposition. Right? So, #1 and #2 are both correct.

Compare these two,

1. I don't like him as much as you.
2. He doesn't like her as much as we.

If 'you' is considered as a nominative(subject), "as...as" functions as compound conjection here, however, #2 is obvious incorrect. In #2, an auxiliary 'do' cannot be omitted, whereas in #1, an auxiliary is allow to go away. This is one of inconsistency I have to accept.

I don't like him as much as you do.

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I have another question about your idea here. If I follow your idea, then I will think up another sentence that goes like "I like him as much as you do." In this sentence, obviously it delivers an affirmative idea,
"I like him."
"You like him."
Both of us like him.

Back to our original sentence, there is a nagative auxiliary that makes me relate its function to form a negation of the main verb 'like', therefore, I think of "dislike".
"I dislike him."
"You dislike him."
Both of us dislike him but you dislike him more than I do.
( Can you feel my headache now? ;>_< )

Compare these two,

1. I don't like him as much as you do.
2. I like him as much as you do.

You'd say #1 would be affirmative rather than negative. I'd say it would be the same as in #2. Since they could convey affirmative feeling (both you and I like him.) it must be the negative "not" that annoys me.

In #1, where is the scope of negation? I think the negative 'not' describes 'much' in stead of 'like', doesn't it?

Mirium, I appreciated of all the elaboraed details you've contributed to this subject. Again, thanks for understanding my questions and I look forward to your further comment.

Yours,[F]
PASTEL.

Miriam · Answer

Hello again, Pastel

You are definitely complicating my winter holidays! ~L~

Let's have a look at this concept of "negation" in relation with "I don't like him as much as you do".

You posted:
Back to our original sentence, there is a nagative auxiliary that makes me relate its function to form a negation of the main verb 'like', therefore, I think of "dislike".
"I dislike him."
"You dislike him."
Both of us dislike him but you dislike him more than I do.
( Can you feel my headache now? ;>_< )

I can feel both your headache and mine right now! ~L~

The sentence "I don't like him as much as you do" speaks of a person (he) who is liked by you and by me. The only difference is that I like him less than you do (or you like him more than I do, which is the same thing in the end).

It is not possible to derive the sentences "I dislike him" and "You dislike him" from the original sentence because it clearly says that "you" like him. "Like" and "Dislike" are antonyms. You cannot possibly use one when you mean the other.

The original sentence means "You like him. I like him too, but not so/as much as you do." It is true that you have a negation in that sentence, but you have to take into account what follows the negation:
1. "I don't like him as much as you do"
is not the same as simply
2. "I don't like him"
It is only in the second sentence that you are saying you don't like him.

In the original sentence you're making a comparison: we both like him, but to different extents.
Now, when you just say "I don't like him", then you have a negative idea. You are not making any comparisons there. However, in the original sentence you are not saying "I don't like him but you do".

Suppose you say "I don't like strawberries as much as I like cherries".
You are not saying that you don't like strawberries, you are noly saying that you like them less than you like cherries.

Let me know if this is still not clear?

Miriam

PASTEL · Answer

Mirium,

Finally. Horray! Have you got any plans in winter break?

PASTEL · Answer

Can I say "I don't like him, as much as you do."  I add a comma to the sentence.

Maj · Answer

But then what would you do with the following example:

-My father doesn't need me as much as I need him.
-My father doesn't need me as much as I do.
-My father doesn't need me as much as I need.

PASTEL · Answer

Hi, maj

I'm afraid I wouldn't do anything with your examples. Thank you.[F]

Miriam · Answer

Hi, Pastel

The comma only adds confusion to that sentence! ~winks~
It was fine without the comma.

Maj,
Your first sentence is correct.
Sentence #2 means that your father doesn't need you as much as you need yourself, not as much as you need him.
Sentence #3 really lacks meaning, you ned an object after "need" for the sentence to make sense.

Miriam

Maj · Answer

Dear Miriam, you couldn't have put it better, I need myself because my father doesn't need me as much as I need him.

Miriam · Answer

Maj,
This thread is not about you or your father, and this section is about grammar and about language use.
I strongly suggest you stay focused... if you can't help posting.

As much as

> I think this sentence is gramatically strange. 'As + Adj/Adv + as' is used to compare two equal things. Here in the sentence, you compare the feeling of 'dislike him'.

Step 2
I don't [like him as much as you like him.]

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