Articles: first mention vs later mention vs specificity

Question

Hello, good people on this Forum.I think that my knowledge about articles has increased quite a lot recently and I would like to sum up a few things to make sure I understand this topic correctly.We all know that we should use an indefinite article when it is first mention. And what I find interesting is that it does not matter whether it is unspecific (any one as an example):a) A comet appears to have a tail as it streaks through the sky.Or specific (one in particular):b) A comet  was seen in the western sky last night.On top of that, I have discovered recently a (the?) thing called "later mention", for example:c) The piece with the black center."piece" has a definte article even though it is first mention, because this object is identified by the words that are later ("with the black center").Please say if anything I stated above is not correct.Now, let me compare two sentences that I have doubts about:1) A comet  was seen in the western sky last night, and it was small.2) The comet  that was seen in the western sky last night was small.For me, they seem to mean the same, however, I decided to use different articles, because I think the first one is 'pure' first mention while the second one is later mention.Is my reasoning correct?Ufff, I produced so much text. I hope someone will be able to cope with it

GPY · Accepted Answer

ReegisPlease say if anything I stated above is not correct.

Usually correct. All I would say again is to remember that exceptions and additional complexities exist ...

ReegisWe all know that we should use an indefinite article when it is first mention.

... for example, "The mobile phone is an indispensible part of modern life" uses the definite article at first mention, as does "The people have spoken".

(Also, obviously, this rule applies only to singular countable nouns.)

ReegisIs my reasoning correct?

Yes.

(The sentences make it sound somewhat as if comets are there one day and gone the next, which is not the case, but this quibble does not affect your question.)

Reegis · Answer

GPYUsually correct. All I would say again is to remember that exceptions and additional complexities exist ...

Yes, I will bear this in mind. I have encountered such cases many times and already know this pain...

GPY"The mobile phone is an indispensible part of modern life"

Do you know the explanation of this exception? Maybe because 'the' here means a class of objects? Like in "The lion lives in Africa".

GPY"The people have spoken"

And here, in turn, maybe because of shared knowledge - both the speaker and the listener know (without explicitly saying) which people are meant here?

The more exceptions I know, the bigger the odds I can figure out similar cases in the future

GPYYes.

Thanks a lot for the time you have spent on helping me.

GPY · Answer

ReegisLike in "The lion lives in Africa".

Yes, it's the same idea. It's a generic reference, sometimes explained as one element of a class standing for a whole class of objects, though personally I don't intuitively think of it that way. I think of it more as a reference to an abstract concept of "mobile phone" or "lion".

ReegisAnd here, in turn, maybe because of shared knowledge - both the speaker and the listener know (without explicitly saying) which people are meant here?

Yes, that's right.

Reegis · Answer

GPY I think of it more as a reference to an abstract concept of "mobile phone" or "lion".

It sounds similar to what I read in an exceptionally good article by John Lawler:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/000001.html

Where he compares the definite generic to the prototype of a species/objects.

GPYYes, that's right.

It seems I am progressing quite well with my English skills

Let me ask you two more things. You wrote, for example, this:
"...uses the definite article at first mention..."
a) Why you said 'the definite article' instead of 'a definite article'? Because it is only one? Then what about indefinite articles? Fo example, is it better to say "You should put an indefinite article before this word" or "You should put the indefinite article before this word"?
b) Do you know why we say 'first mention' instead of 'a first mention'? I know that it is correct, but I am always tempted to say 'a first mention'. I don't know why - somehow it suits better for me.

GPY · Answer

First, just to go back to one of your earlier examples:

a) The comet that was seen in the western sky last night ...
b) A comet that was seen in the western sky last night ...

(a) presupposes that it is already known that a comet was seen, while (b) does not. I don't think my previous reply made this clear.

Reegis"...uses the definite article at first mention..."a) Why you said 'the definite article' instead of 'a definite article'? Because it is only one?

Yes, there is only one definite article in concept. It is not wrong to use "a definite article", meaning one instance of the word, but I think the phrasing is stronger with "the".

ReegisFo example, is it better to say "You should put an indefinite article before this word" or "You should put the indefinite article before this word"?

Again, the former is not wrong, but the latter feels stronger (to me, anyway).

Reegisb) Do you know why we say 'first mention' instead of 'a first mention'?

I can't immediately think of a reason except just that it's idiomatic, i.e. "it's what we say". Of course, "a/the first mention" are also possible in the right context. The particular instance that you commented on, "at first mention", follows a pattern also seen in "at first sight", "at first glance" and others.

Reegis · Answer

GPYa) The comet that was seen in the western sky last night ...b) A comet that was seen in the western sky last night ...

Hmmm, please note that sentence b) (my #1) was a little bit different (without 'that'):
1) A comet was seen in the western sky last night, and it was small.
2) The comet that was seen in the western sky last night was small.

Are you sure that sentence b) is grammatically correct? When I was creating the phrase "The comet that..." I was trying to use the concept called later mention. Here http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/article3c.html they say that if later mention unambiguously identifies the given object, then we should use 'the'.

GPYIt is not wrong to use "a definite article", meaning one instance of the word, but I think the phrasing is stronger with "the".

Do you think that using 'the' in this case is similar to using 'the' in our sentence about lions? In other words, when one says 'the indefinite article' he means the whole class (the prototype)?

GPYThe particular instance that you commented on, "at first mention", follows a pattern also seen in "at first sight", "at first glance" and others.

Yeah, you are right! I didn't notice it at first glance.

GPY · Answer

ReegisHmmm, please note that sentence b) (my #1) was a little bit different (without 'that'):

Yes, these were intended as variants on your sentence 2 only. I should have labelled them 2a and 2b.

ReegisAre you sure that sentence b) is grammatically correct?

Yes. (Obviously it needs more words to make it a grammatically complete sentence.)

ReegisDo you think that using 'the' in this case is similar to using 'the' in our sentence about lions? In other words, when one says 'the indefinite article' he means the whole class (the prototype)?

There isn't really a concept of a "class" of indefinite articles, in my view. There are individual instances of use, but they don't have the individuality of lions.

Reegis · Answer

GPYYes, these were intended as variants on your sentence 2 only. I should have labelled them 2a and 2b.

Now I see. There really are so many subtleties when it comes to articles...

GPYThere isn't really a concept of a "class" of indefinite articles, in my view. There are individual instances of use, but they don't have the individuality of lions.

An interesting point of view. I must say that a concept of 'class' is quite new to me and I don't have it thought through yet.
So, now I will get down to learning new sentences and we will see how it goes with my new knowledge

Thanks for your help GPY.

Articles: first mention vs later mention vs specificity

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